More Than Church: What Christian Growth Looks Like

In this episode, Kevin and Carl discuss their personal journeys in faith and the importance of growth and maturity in the Christian walk.  God. They also emphasize the importance of delivering the message of the gospel with love and understanding, and the need to let go of stigmas and preconceived notions about Christians. They discuss the different approaches needed for different individuals and the danger of leaning too far on one side or the other. Finally, they address the fear of failure and the responsibility to share the gospel, regardless of the reception.

Transcript

Kevin (00:02.454)
All right, welcome to another edition of Beyond the Benediction where we deal with the deficits in discipleship again. This is your boy, Kevin Toomer, and I got my brother from back home, Carl Monroe. I used to call him the Psalmist because a brother can blow, he can sing. He's a man of many talents. I've seen him. I'm telling my age again. These folks making me feel old. I remember back in the church, he was a little young still singing in the choir and now he

Karl Munroe (00:16.245)
Yeah!

Karl Munroe (00:29.276)
Yeah.

Kevin (00:30.602)
I see some wisdom in the beard now, you know? So he's fully grown now. So brother Carl, tell the folks a little bit something about yourself.

Karl Munroe (00:32.292)
Man!

Karl Munroe (00:38.223)
My mama.

Karl Munroe (00:44.175)
Man, my name is Carl Monroe, originally from Miami, Florida, and I reside in the good old Atlanta, Georgia. Man, I did not grow up in church. I didn't grow up in church at all. Nobody took me to church, none of that. So I joined my first church in 2009, January 1st, New Year's service. And I remember the minister's telling me,

You're not normal. And I'm like, I didn't do nothing. And they said, people that join on New Year's never come back. It's an emotional thing, and then they don't come back. You say, but you, you came back and you and everything. So I'm like, okay. So yeah, man, I am now, like you said, I got some wisdom down here, none up here. Wisdom down there.

Kevin (01:24.279)
That is true.

Kevin (01:40.964)
Same club, same club, same club.

Karl Munroe (01:42.883)
and about to be a father of two. We are pregnant with our second baby and we just found out Monday. Thank you, thank you. We found out Monday, it is a girl. Yes, yeah, I got my pair, I'm done. I'm done, boy, girl, I'm done. So, yeah, man, I've been, it's been how long? 14 years in ministry now?

Kevin (01:47.062)
Ah!

Kevin (01:50.178)
Congratulations.

Kevin (01:55.29)
All right, okay, congrats, congrats. Okay, well, congratulations, congratulations.

Karl Munroe (02:08.855)
Nah, longer than that, gotta be. What's 2009? 2009 to 2024. That. Yep. Yep, so I'm a babe and not a babe at the same time. I'm a vet and still a babe at the same time in certain areas. It just, that's how it goes. Growth.

Kevin (02:09.494)
Mmm.

Kevin (02:14.09)
15, it'll be 15 years. Okay.

Kevin (02:31.222)
Well, that's, that's we all of their brother. There's no point where we get to the point where we got it all locked down or we have everything covered. You know, God and being a Christian, this Christian walk is so deep that do we never get to the bottom of it or frill or we have that cup that proverbial cup field. So speaking of that, you know, growth and everything, what a question I always ask my guests, what is something about God, the church, the faith, the Bible, anything?

Karl Munroe (02:43.)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (02:48.196)
All right.

Karl Munroe (02:53.398)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (02:58.046)
something that you used to believe when you first became a Christian was true, but not as you've grown and developed and matured that you say, well, maybe I was wrong. And it's really this instead.

Karl Munroe (03:11.443)
I had one part, because I knew that question was coming. I had one part and then as you was asking it, two parts came up. Look, first is God's choosing is something that is totally, I thought it was one thing and it's not, because coming from the world, being in the chorus and you looking at R&B singers and all this stuff and all you think is.

Kevin (03:19.238)
All right, come with it. Come with it.

Karl Munroe (03:40.831)
I gotta be the best, dance the best, look the best, sing the best, and I should elevate and they should want me, they should pick me, they should... And when you translate that into the church, into the gospel, into the spirit, that does not translate the same way. So you just... God doesn't choose like that. He doesn't choose based on how good you are, how good you look, and how talented you are, because He gives everybody gifts.

But most of the time we realize he chooses based on the heart. And if you're not in that space to be chosen and you can handle that responsibility, most times he's not gonna give you that because it's gonna do more damage to you and the kingdom versus actually edifying it. And the second part that I just thought about was actually growth. Growth doesn't look like what I thought it looked like.

Kevin (04:30.768)
Yes.

Karl Munroe (04:39.307)
I thought it was linear. I thought it was a straight path of whatever, but it's not. You can sometimes take steps back and that makes you grow versus continually going in the same direction. Sometimes going in that direction is what's stopping your growth and then you take a step back and that continues the process. So growth and...

Kevin (04:52.704)
Let's go.

Karl Munroe (05:06.083)
God's choosing. Both of those things don't look like what I thought they looked like.

Kevin (05:10.962)
Those are, man, that's the, see, he's starting off heavy already. We ain't been recording five minutes, he already started with the deep stuff. Hey, but brother, but you are, you are absolutely 100% correct. And even someone who, you know, I got you by a few years and, you know, being in a position that I've been for as long as I have, you're right, that growth thing.

Karl Munroe (05:14.678)
Hahaha

Karl Munroe (05:20.313)
Right.

Kevin (05:33.858)
their word choices were perfect. It is not linear. Not only is it not linear, something we talk about a lot on the show, it's not only not linear, it's not comfortable. It is not sunshine, rainbows, a leisurely walk through the forest. As you're growing across, because, and we talk about this on the show as well, growth means sometimes removal.

Karl Munroe (05:44.699)
At all

Karl Munroe (05:58.947)
Yeah.

Kevin (05:59.67)
which means removing of things and places and people and habits and thought processes that you had when you came to Christ. And God says, my process is to make you holy. So to make you holy, I gotta take off some of those things. And some of those things we don't want to let go. But God says, I'm looking at a bigger picture to get you where I want you to be. You can't take this stuff with you.

Karl Munroe (06:10.83)
Right.

Karl Munroe (06:16.571)
correct.

Kevin (06:23.587)
And some of the damage and some of the reason why we kind of backtrack is because we're still holding on to things that God wants to take from us. He's, okay, well, I got to deal with you in this first before you can continue this journey. So.

Karl Munroe (06:34.615)
Yeah.

Kevin (06:36.03)
what you said was excellent and on point. And so what I want to say about you as well, like him and I, we met at the same church back home years ago and I remember him, he always had a vibrant personality. He sung in the choir again, I called him the Psalmist. That was my name from the Psalmist. I called him the Psalmist, you know? And to see where Carl is now is such an amazement and I give God so much glory.

because you can see the calling all over his life. If any one of you follow him, I definitely recommend you follow him on Instagram and Facebook because he has a lot of good nuggets of information and he gives a lot of good words. So talk about that with us real quick if you could. Tell us how that came to be. What was the journey for you from, okay, now I'm singing to now for all intents and purposes.

You're almost pretty, you're basically preaching. So what, what was that? How was that transition or that growth process for you?

Karl Munroe (07:38.771)
When it comes to ministering in song, once again, taken from the R&B side, you put it more on the skills, you put it more on the presentation of it all. But once I really, a fun thing, I didn't listen to anything, any gospel outside of whatever we were gonna sing. For like the first three years of me joining the church, I was like, ah, I'm only gonna sing what I gotta.

Kevin (08:07.43)
sing for the church.

Karl Munroe (08:07.635)
And that was it. And I would go back home and it was usher Chris Brown, Beyonce, and whoever else. And once I really got into, okay, you know what? It's been long enough. It's the shift happened of, okay, what is this? What are they talking about? What am I singing about? What song is that? I start to see the shift in music, just based on age, I guess, maturity. And once I took it serious of...

ministering, I realized that we were just singing what pastor was preaching. His high points or his nuggets that were in there to throw the scripture in there, that's our atlips. It's scripture. So once I went and started studying those atlips

and started saying, what does it mean to say, bless the Lord on my soul and all of his within me? Where does it come from? Who said that? Why do we repeat that so much? And he makes me lie down besides, what is this? And once I started doing that, is when it started to set in. Now, the part about me getting it out, I started realizing that the way I took notes, people would call me at the end of service or the next day and say, hey,

send me your notes and I'm like, I took the same notes you took and they're like, no you didn't. I didn't take those notes. The notes you took is way, and I'm like, wait a minute. Well, first of all, I was in church so much that I can hear it a couple of times and I can get more info than just one service. But just for the most part though, I can, the way that I was taking notes and retaining it to put it back in my notes on my phone.

was way more advanced and I started saying, man, I got a knack for this. I got a thing for this, the structure of the sermon or the message. And once I started taking the original why and then putting it to the how, that's what I just started in my own, I got my notes and it says personal Bible study, personal sermons, personal, and then I have the sermons that I take from other people. And I'm like, wow, I'm putting together.

Karl Munroe (10:28.619)
certain stuff and I'm like, okay, well, this is only five minutes of information. What can I expand on? And that's what makes it very, it made it more interesting to me as well because before that Bible, it was just like reading a book, but not understanding it. So once I started doing that and started saying, well, why? Who is this? What?

That's what made the whole thing come out. And now I'm in the process or the season of getting out of the crowd. I got the why, I got the how. And now my quote to myself is, their salvation technically isn't your business. Your business is getting it out. Everybody that Jesus preached to was not saved.

Kevin (11:22.186)
Yes. Yeah, that's good.

Karl Munroe (11:25.039)
So I have to say I got it out because that's my job. My job is to preach, sing, minister, tell the good news. It doesn't say that everybody you talk to, not even family, is going to receive it. And I have to get out of, I don't have enough likes. I don't have enough views. I don't have enough. Now I tell myself if one person likes it, if one person views it, if one person comments it, one, that's all I need to say, somebody saw it. That's it.

Kevin (11:42.678)
Mmmm

Kevin (11:54.25)
Wow. Wow, that's amazing. And that's good for me because that's my thing when I do this show and others. And I still have my moments transparently where you can get caught up in.

Karl Munroe (12:07.183)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (12:08.394)
you know, you put your, you put your all into something and the results and the numbers and the responses don't necessarily be like you anticipated. So it can kind of take the wind out of your sail. So what you're saying there is so necessary and powerful. And we all struggle with that because we're still human, you know, you're still human, but I also notice, and this is funny, a reason why you were, when you were talking, I was just smiling because you sound just like me and every other

Karl Munroe (12:16.707)
Yep.

Karl Munroe (12:24.803)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (12:31.556)
Hehehe

Kevin (12:38.828)
who realize their call. You sound like them as well. Your camera's off, I don't know if you know that. Yeah, it went off. I can hear you, but I can't see. Okay, it's on now. Okay.

Karl Munroe (12:42.01)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (12:47.331)
Oh, what else? Oh lord, no!

Karl Munroe (12:53.747)
Yeah, it got her. Yeah.

Let's get it. Ah, boom.

Kevin (13:01.746)
Okay. All right. We're good. Let's still record. I can fix it. No, I fixed it. I can edit and fix it. So as I was saying, the reason why I was smiling was because the things you were saying, you sounded just like me and every other person I know that was wrestling or trying to determine their call because, and this is why I say that, in your case, God used your singing gift.

Karl Munroe (13:04.705)
Okay.

Karl Munroe (13:15.119)
Ha ha ha.

Karl Munroe (13:20.494)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (13:25.935)
Yeah.

Kevin (13:26.662)
as a segue into you becoming a preacher because now it led you to, with me, obviously I can't sing. The Lord ain't give me that gift. Praise God. I love music. Wish I could. Wish I could. Carl, if I could sing every time you see, oh, here come over singing Kevin. I be singing everywhere. But I can't sing. They be like, oh my God, here comes singing Kevin. Get away.

Karl Munroe (13:36.895)
haha

Karl Munroe (13:45.099)
Ha ha!

Karl Munroe (13:50.915)
Right, we'll be terrified.

Kevin (13:52.998)
Oh my God, here come Kevin. Oh, look, that Negro always singing. Oh, God. And he can't sing, you know? But that would be me. But I...

Karl Munroe (13:59.456)
Right, right. Look, we talked about you in the group chat. He came in insane. Right.

Kevin (14:03.826)
Exactly. Somebody need to tell him. But that's not my gift, obviously. But mine was writing. Mine was poetry. So you know from the church. So you know, and for me, it was like when I was smiling, it was almost identical. I was at church and I would be listening to the sermon and just like you, I'm listening and I'm piecing together. And then I joined a ministry.

Karl Munroe (14:16.516)
Correct.

Karl Munroe (14:20.162)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (14:25.55)
Yeah.

Kevin (14:33.798)
And I will be putting together lessons because it was writing and also teaching, as you also know. So God used those gifts. And I was not thinking about being no preacher. But God used those gifts. And just like you said, somebody would see me put lessons together, and someone was actually in a minister's class. And they said, Kevin, you writing sermons, man. I'm like, what you talking about? I'm just writing a lesson.

Karl Munroe (14:42.745)
Right.

Karl Munroe (14:51.663)
Yeah.

Kevin (14:57.726)
for the ministry, they know, no, you write a lesson, but this is a sermon. And they told me what you wrote right here, you writing better in this lesson than most of the people in the ministers class write sermons. And I was, like you said, it was kind of like befuddling to me, I couldn't believe it. Of course, it's not about me. Long story short, I ran for so long and the guy was like, okay, woke me up, brought me to the light and now I embrace where I am. So that's why I was smiling.

Karl Munroe (14:59.352)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (15:07.852)
Right, right.

Karl Munroe (15:22.571)
It's crazy you say that like that though. It's crazy because it seems like the compounded gifts make the uniqueness because if you take every minister or whatever in a room, we're all technically writing a sermon. But how you go about writing that sermon, what do you hear, what do you see, how are you gonna present it? That's the thing that makes it unique and...

minister to who it needs to minister to because five ministers go minister to five different groups of people So that's crazy that you were saying that and I thought about wow my gift helped me to Do it that way his gift helped him to do it that way, but all ways are necessary all always are needed and in this

Kevin (16:14.726)
Right. Like scripture talks about, you know, we're all part of the same body. So your, your journey in terms of the body, you might be the arm. My journey, I might be the leg, but the arm and the leg work together for the whole body. So even though we're different parts, we, you know, we compliment each other for the movement of the body. So, so.

Karl Munroe (16:25.803)
Right. Yep. They work together.

Karl Munroe (16:36.043)
Yeah, jointly fit.

Kevin (16:37.766)
Exactly, exactly. So that's amazing to hear you say that. And that's why I was just smiling to me, because I'm like, I could just see it, how God used you and manipulated the circumstance to bring you there. So now that being said, what are some things that, you know, in your growth now, you're maturing, you're looking at the word, you're looking at the scriptures, and I see your stuff and it is excellent. Your stuff is amazingly well written. The scriptures are your background. And that's the key.

Karl Munroe (17:03.688)
Thank you.

Kevin (17:06.59)
What are some things that you think that as Christians we need to do more to have more people have a more bit, and my guest last week and I talked about this as well. What are some things we can do as Christians to get more Christians to have the same mentality that you and I are saying about getting into the word and not viewing it as boring and not just being satisfied with going to church? Okay, I went to church, I'm good.

What can we do to get people more excited or more intrigued about actually getting into the scriptures?

Karl Munroe (17:39.931)
One of my quotes that I, not even a quote, I think it was just something I wrote now. The reason why we can go to church and go in and leave the same way or leave and continue to do some of the same stuff most of the time is because we never took the time to get the relationship with God. That's the key difference. When you start to...

really sit and be real with yourself. Most, it's one of my friends and I minister to all the time. I realized that a part of my ministry is women, honestly. I'm cool with everybody, but women, I have a focus on, if y'all can, cause the men, we pretty simple, but women, if we can, if we can.

reign some stuff in sometime, it'll catapult because the man's gonna do some stuff for a lady. The man will do some stuff for his wife that he won't do for his friend. So I'm talking to her and I let her know, I said, you live in a fantasy world to get out of reality because your reality ain't that good. And she was like, what? That's what the world does. They drink, they smoke, they do this stuff only just to escape reality. They come back to the same reality.

and they haven't really done anything to get, but if we can get the stigmas off of Christians, the stigma of you're a hypocrite, well, we are struggling. That's not the point of, somebody has lied to you and let you believe that the point is to be perfect. You're not perfect, I'm not perfect. I'm just supposed to try a little harder than you as I'm maturing in this Christian walk. Other than that,

We're the same person. So if we can get rid of the stigmas and the preconceived stuff about how we're supposed to act, how we're supposed to look, how we're supposed to dress, and stick to a baseline of love, meaning, yes, there is right and wrong, but if you come at the wrong wit without love, they're not gonna hear it. I had to learn that myself. I don't know if you heard that. You can hear that lawn mower.

Kevin (20:06.358)
No, no, I can't hear you. I can't hear you.

Karl Munroe (20:08.051)
Oh great. So I'm gonna close the window just in case. So, three, two, one. If we get rid of that stigma and we create the baseline of love and come at them with love, then they'll receive it more because you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. So I had to learn that, man. I beat people over the head with the Bible when I first started. What?

Kevin (20:16.595)
Okay.

Karl Munroe (20:37.955)
I used to whoop people like they was a Hebrew slave, I promise you. And I had to stop that because I was, people were getting rejected. They didn't want to. And I'm like, that's not my goal. And I had to change my approach in order to get the results. And that's the thing. We have to come with love in order to get them to be more receptive to ministering and what we have to offer. Honestly, God, huh.

they only get a glimpse from us. Most of the time we can get them into a church or a good environment that we amplify. You can see that it's not just me, it's my boy over here, my girl over here, the minister hugs on you, the pastor act like they been reading your text messages. That's what captures them. We draw them in with our words and our ministering and we plant the seeds because we're the personal one to them. But once they get to the bigger picture.

And they can get past those stigmas, those preconceived things that the world literally has implanted in them. Oh, we're supposed to... Christian, you're supposed to... I'm a dad just like you. I'm a man just like you. I tell them, I see the same stuff you see. I just choose not to react to it. So it's... Once we get rid of that and we come with love, it changes everything.

Stop cutting people off and all of this what the world says. No, we have to literally be counterculture and go at them with love. And that's gonna change everything.

Kevin (22:16.07)
I really like that answer. And you know it's funny because it's like, I learned this too in teaching and doing discipleship training, evangelism training, that when you talk to people, especially those who don't know Christ, there's not a one-size-fit-all approach. And depending on where that person is, the foundation has to always be truth. The foundation has to always be biblical. But on that,

Karl Munroe (22:26.352)
Hmm.

Karl Munroe (22:30.19)
Right.

Karl Munroe (22:43.611)
Correct.

Kevin (22:45.358)
how you hand it to that person will vary from person to person. Because like you said, there may be some people who they needed straight no chaser. Just give me the goods. And a lot of times, as you said, women may be, especially with all this women, women not necessarily need that harsh truth. Men on the other hand,

Karl Munroe (22:50.487)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (22:55.96)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (23:05.671)
Right. Yeah.

Kevin (23:07.542)
Give it to me straight bro. I don't need to hear all that. Just what you trying to tell me. So for the men, yes, straight no chaser. Give it to me what I need to hear. For women, there are other sensibilities and things that even that can vary from person to person. But now the danger is that I've seen in a lot of common cultural churches is that they usually kind of lean too far on one side or the other.

Karl Munroe (23:31.514)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (23:37.507)
Yep.

Kevin (23:37.634)
They either, as you said, too heavy handed with the scripture, fire, brimstone, damnation, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. Or they go to the other end of spectrum, God loves everyone. And it doesn't matter what you do and how you live because God is love. And Jesus, when he came on the scene, he didn't do anything bad. Jesus loved everyone. So

Karl Munroe (23:45.132)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (23:53.655)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ha ha ha.

Karl Munroe (24:04.419)
Right.

Kevin (24:06.218)
You see what I'm saying? So that's the danger and that's the challenge for us as ministers, because we gotta walk that fine line because God is a God of love, but he's also a God of justice. And you can't just give God, people a one-sided view of God, because then you're doing them a disservice and you're really not helping them at all.

Karl Munroe (24:17.423)
Mm-hmm. Also, yes.

Karl Munroe (24:25.371)
Correct.

Karl Munroe (24:30.923)
All right. I had a, my current church, Pastor Ramsey said, the other week said, some people are petters and some people are kickers. Petters, whatever you got to tell me that's harsh, you better pet me first. You better make sure you hug and love on me. And whatever the harshness is, it better be around a corner somewhere before it get to me. You better make sure I'm fluffed up. But a kicker, give it to me straight.

And most times the kickers, they want to be kicked, but then they'll reject the person that kicked them. They'll take the info and then the person that kicked them, they're done with them. Like you said, we got to be careful with everything because the kick still hurt. So be careful with how we deliver that message. The delivery, you can win or lose somebody instantly just by...

Kevin (25:13.448)
Yeah

Kevin (25:18.27)
Right. Yeah.

Karl Munroe (25:28.943)
how you come at them.

Kevin (25:31.05)
And I like what you said in the beginning of the episode. And that's something we have to remember as well. That our job, as you said, is to give the message. And you or I or anyone else can dot every I and cross every T. And as you said, I can be the best petter or I can be the most effective kicker and they'll still leave us unchanged.

Karl Munroe (25:42.107)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (25:51.083)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (25:56.972)
Yeah.

Kevin (25:57.106)
And we have to resist the temptation to think that somehow we failed because they didn't respond the way we would have wanted them to. And again, that's one of the things that, and I think that's why a lot of people are afraid to share because they have that fear of failure because they don't understand. And I've talked about this on my show a million times that the success is sharing the gospel is sharing the gospel. But once you, right, once you share it,

Karl Munroe (26:04.59)
Right.

Karl Munroe (26:10.787)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (26:22.652)
is sharing. That's the success.

Kevin (26:25.714)
you're not responsible for the reception, but you are responsible to share. And I think it's a combination of people fear of failure and their fear of not knowing enough. Well, I don't know enough. I haven't been studying. I haven't been going to church long enough now, which brings me to another question. What do you think about those people? And we talk about them sure as well, who, okay, you've been going to church for a extended amount of time.

Karl Munroe (26:54.235)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (26:54.402)
but you still don't have that baseline knowledge. You know, I'm not gonna say anything, but you and I came from a church and we have people that have been going there for multiple years, literal decades, and let's keep it a buck. Where you are right now, you're surpassing them and they were in the church longer than you. What do you think about? That's it too. Exactly.

Karl Munroe (26:59.727)
Ooh. Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (27:08.143)
Decades.

Karl Munroe (27:14.902)
Yeah.

They've been alive longer than me. They've been in church longer than I've been alive. Ha ha ha.

Kevin (27:24.29)
So what do you think about those people who, cause again, we're talking about growth, right? What do you think about those people who just don't seem to be growing? Like, what do you think about? What do you think about?

Karl Munroe (27:36.379)
So, just to steal another thing my pastor talked about last week, that he said, if you go to college, if you go to high school for four years, you get a diploma. You go to college for two years, you get an AA, you go to college for four years, you get a bachelor's, you go to college six years, you get a master's, you go to college for eight years, you get a doctorate or whatever. He said, some of us been in church all our life and don't know nothing. And I said, oh man, he said, how is it that you've been in church 30 something years?

and I'm reading a scripture that you've never heard. It's one book. And the quote, I'm the quote guy, the quote that I like to say is, previously it was come as you are, and previously I could stay that way. Come as I am and stay if you want to. Now it's a...

Kevin (28:08.802)
Mm. Yeah.

Karl Munroe (28:34.907)
come as you are but you're not gonna want to stay that way because I believe

Unity. If we can't foster a community of knowledge, of growth, of accountability, that's where the growth doesn't take place. That's where the, if I can't look at you and say, yeah, Mr. Tumor, uh, I didn't like how you came at me that way or whatever the case may be. You could have did X, Y, Z and you-

taking in love if I came the right way, and you taking in love and grow from it, versus now you offended that I've had the unction or the testicular fortitude to come speak to you that way. Now I mean, we don't talk. We can't communicate no more. We can't, so not, division is never gonna equal growing. That's why the devil, that's the first thing the devil tries to do is separate. Because if we come together,

It's we're going to grow two or better than one. So if we can't have a space or a place, a small group, a Bible study, where somebody can hold you accountable or you can hold someone else accountable and you grow together and say, nah, we're not doing that. Nah, that's what it is. What you read today, oh yeah, that scripture was like this. Nah, that didn't mean that. Or look up, if you can't foster that, you're never gonna have growth because most times we can't hold ourselves accountable to.

not pick up the piece of chicken, let alone to wake up seven o'clock in the morning to read and study and pray. It just doesn't happen. So if we can't find, and I'm not specifically saying church home on purpose because a lot of now generation, the first thing they say is why I got to go to church. Now I don't believe that, that you don't have to go to church. No, you need church.

Karl Munroe (30:35.491)
because it's just something that the pastor or somebody else is going to know or help you with that you just don't, you're just not going to get it by yourself or in a small group that you put together. But if you have to start with small groups and a Bible study at your house or whatever, that's the key to growth because anything that you want to grow in, you want to be a lawn service guy. The first thing you got to do is get around somebody that knows what they're doing.

Kevin (31:03.298)
You're right.

Karl Munroe (31:03.331)
You gotta talk to somebody that's gonna say, no, you don't do it like that, you do it like this. Cut the grass this way. That's with anything. So if you're by yourself, that's strike number one. You gotta get around some people. And then two, eventually, if you get around some people, you're gonna be way more open. If you wasn't open to going to church before, six, seven months into that Bible study, if it's actually making you grow, you're gonna want to go to church. You're gonna want to say, oh my gosh, I wish I could experience this with.

500 people around me or 100 people around me to we can worship together We can learn together it is going to make you want to do that So that is the key getting around some people connecting. That's the word connecting to some people that are going to Hold your accountable And you get to hold somebody else accountable as well and the good part about holding somebody else accountable is most of the time You're gonna hold yourself more accountable because I can't come at you

and tell you you're not doing something if I know I'm not doing it. So I'm going to make sure I'm doing it if I got to tell you ain't. So. Yeah.

Kevin (31:59.391)
Sure. Right.

Right.

Kevin (32:06.13)
Right, exactly. You got to take care of home first before you start talking about people. And that's an awesome answer. And I think to add on to that, we as those who are Christians, especially when it comes to those who are in the world and those who don't know Christ, what I'm learning, Carl, is that most of the time, the reason why people don't come to Christ is because they haven't spoken to someone who is already a Christian.

Karl Munroe (32:11.251)
Yeah, you better sweep.

Kevin (32:35.926)
That and when they do, that Christian can't answer their questions because, okay, like you just said, using the lawn service as an example, right? If I want to start a lawn service and I'm using Carl as an example, Carl has been doing the lawn service for 15 years. Oh my gosh, Carl, you've been doing this for 15 years? Man, I want to learn from you. What should I get first?

Karl Munroe (32:36.473)
right?

Karl Munroe (32:43.835)
Mm-mm.

Karl Munroe (32:51.309)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (32:59.39)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (33:04.642)
for a lawn service, and Carl, you say, I don't know. I don't know what to get. What you mean? But you've been doing this for 15 years. You don't have any insight. You don't have any knowledge. Nah, man, you just gotta figure it out. So then what's the one thing I'm gonna come to come grip? Well, you know what? Maybe I shouldn't be in the lawn service because people have been doing it this long and they don't, can't even answer my questions. That's the same thing I'm noticing, Carl. That people, when they go to Christians.

Karl Munroe (33:14.555)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (33:23.615)
Yeah, yeah.

Karl Munroe (33:28.835)
Yeah.

Kevin (33:31.57)
and their questions aren't answers or their answer with, like you said earlier, without love or like, you know what, whatever. You, you need to just read your Bible or whatever. They get smart with people that turns them off to the faith. And then what happens is the enemy picks up on that trail and now he'll send them down the road of something false, but at the very least they're answering their questions. It may be wrong, but at least you addressed it. And what happens is so many Christians, like we talked about a few minutes ago,

Karl Munroe (33:41.038)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (33:48.091)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (33:54.979)
Yeah.

Kevin (34:01.43)
been in the church for decades, but can't answer simple questions. Because there's a young man that goes to my church and he had fallen away. And he came back to our church and I started talking with him and now he's on fire and it's not because of Kevin. And he told me, he said, because you answer my questions. I had questions about the faith. I started believe when I was a kid, life started life. So now.

Karl Munroe (34:11.419)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (34:16.794)
Right.

Karl Munroe (34:23.308)
Right.

Karl Munroe (34:29.303)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (34:29.414)
I'm like, I don't know if I believe this stuff because why would God allow all this bad stuff to happen to me? So then he comes to me and the Holy Spirit gave me some things to help him see. He's like, you know what? That's a good reason. That's a good answer. That makes sense. Then all the pieces come together. Now he's on fire. So I think a lot of times that's what happens with us. When people do run into so-called Christians, we don't act Christ-like and we can't even answer their concerns.

Karl Munroe (34:43.214)
Right.

Karl Munroe (34:53.905)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (34:57.659)
We have three phases. We have knowledge, understanding, then wisdom. Most times, most of us are those same people that we're talking about right now. They've got knowledge. They've gotten, some of them don't, some of them don't, some of them don't. But I argue to say, I'm gonna argue to say most of them do. Because to know something is to say,

Kevin (35:11.49)
Some of them don't. Some of them don't. Some of them don't. Some of them don't.

Karl Munroe (35:26.459)
Carl has gray hair. You know it. That's that. That is just is what it is. Most of the stuff we know, but we never get to the point of understanding. That's why I told you I said I had the why. That's the I was the first key. I knew the name Jesus. I knew church. I knew that stuff. I know that it's good, but then why?

If I can't understand it, one of the things I say with relationships, if you cannot get why, your relationship will not grow. If I can't be your friend and ask you why did you do that to me, why did you say that to that person, if it's never a why, we will never grow together in marriage, anything. If I can't say why and you can't give me an understanding, we know when we can't get to the understanding, you will never get to actually walking it in wisdom.

So like I said, you answered his questions because he knew some stuff, but he had questions on it. Why? How does this work? Who does this? Where did it come from? And when you answered it and he got the understanding, now I can walk into wisdom because belief, true belief changes your actions. You can't tell me you believe you're going to die and keep doing the same thing, if you don't wanna die at least.

Kevin (36:50.41)
Sorry, goodnight. You guys.

Karl Munroe (36:51.447)
You can't tell me you believe that if you would do this tomorrow, you'll get $100 and you want $100 and you don't do it. That means you don't truly believe it because beliefs change behaviors. So once he got to his wisdom to understand that why, and he can believe that thing, now I can walk in wisdom. I can walk it out. So those Christians, they never get there. They never get to understand that why they just get into the system.

Kevin (37:03.442)
Okay, that makes sense.

Kevin (37:12.115)
Okay, that makes sense.

Karl Munroe (37:19.863)
and they never ask questions, and if they ask questions, they never get the answers. So they're stuck.

Kevin (37:27.296)
I can see that perspective. It makes sense in terms of an example I gave. I can see there is some information, some information, knowledge that they know, and then it translates into wisdom. I can understand, and that makes a lot of sense. I can see that. And I guess, yeah, but that what you're saying as

Karl Munroe (37:40.51)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (37:47.843)
They still babes.

Kevin (37:53.058)
reasonable and logical and sensible as it is. It doesn't answer the question. We're saying what's happening. And you said why, right? Because, you know, it is not a challenge. We just, you know, we just, we just rapping. So, right. So it's, yeah, because, okay, you know this stuff. I'll give you a perfect example. I was thinking about, and I'm gonna do a sneak preview. I'm gonna do a discussion on my show.

Karl Munroe (37:57.625)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (38:04.383)
Okay, that is true. No, no, I like it though. Ha ha ha.

Karl Munroe (38:16.077)
Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Kevin (38:22.886)
on the Talos, the parable of the Talos. Right? I'm going to do this coming up soon, so guys, pay attention. It's coming up soon. So I'm going to break that down. But the parable of the Talos, Jesus talks about the three servants, right? Five, three, and one. Right? So what does he say? I'm giving you these Talos. I'm going away. The one with the five works hard. Hey, Lord.

Karl Munroe (38:35.876)
Wow.

Karl Munroe (38:40.059)
than one.

Kevin (38:47.722)
What do you do? I worked hard, I doubled. The one with three, I worked hard, I could double. It was three or two, I think it was two. It was two, it was two. Two, and then I doubled. And then one, of course, I knew you did it. I hid it, I sat on it, and he said, get away from me, you worthless, lazy servant. All of them had information. They had knowledge. They knew what to do, but they still chose one of them.

Karl Munroe (38:50.82)
Yep.

Karl Munroe (38:54.36)
Mm-hmm.

Stay on it.

Karl Munroe (39:03.205)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (39:09.051)
Correct.

Karl Munroe (39:12.753)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (39:15.958)
chose not to use the information. They chose to sit on it. And I'm afraid, Carl, there's a lot of people in church that do just that. They go to church. Yes, they got the information. They got the word. They heard the pastor. Amen, they jump and run and scream and shout. And it dies with them. And not only do they not implement it with their life, pass that high on Sunday. But when I see Carl at work on Monday,

Karl Munroe (39:16.689)
Mmm.

Karl Munroe (39:27.107)
oooo

Karl Munroe (39:31.727)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (39:42.316)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (39:43.934)
I don't tell Carl nothing about what I heard on Sunday. Or if I do, it's barely anything. I might talk about the choir or talk about something else. But I got the info. But I'm not transitioning to that point to where I want to go. And that's the part. And I don't think we can answer here, because there's a million reasons. But the question is, why are so many people in church getting that information Sunday after Sunday after Sunday after Sunday? And they're not.

Karl Munroe (39:47.905)
right.

Karl Munroe (39:51.787)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (40:13.214)
choosing like that servant, they're choosing not to grow.

Karl Munroe (40:21.551)
The Holy Spirit just spoke to me while you, that answer because I was stumped. I was like, I don't know why. And what came to me was, I have to put myself in those shoes because we all have those times where it's like, perfect example, when I got to my current church, Hunger Church Atlanta, when I got there, I didn't want to do anything. I wanted to sit, I wanted to just come, I wanted to just leave.

Kevin (40:27.084)
Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's not a, you know.

Kevin (40:50.664)
You already talk about me, but go ahead. You talk about me already.

Karl Munroe (40:52.907)
Yeah, I literally, I just wanted to do it. I didn't want to do none of that. My first Sunday, somebody from the old Church of Miami was up there, pointed me out to Pastor Panita and said, him with the green sweater that just joined, get him. About the time I walked up there and I was just gonna say, hey, and the first thing she said was, yeah, he told me about you. And I'm like, what?

I didn't come for this yet. So my mind was made up to literally do nothing. I didn't want to, I wanted to come and go. And the spirit spoke to me and said, no, it's not necessarily, like you said, it's not the full answer, but a lot of the times what I would notice and what I'm thinking about previously is we don't have a space that we can grow to.

Kevin (41:37.579)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (41:50.671)
Or we don't have a push to grow. Meaning the space, it was a point in time where you would see, and this is across the country, you will see that high school, once they graduate from high school, they drop off. They'll come back maybe 30 years old after life done beat them down. And they'll come back and they stay with church for the rest of their life. But it's that gap. So most of the time.

The churches don't even have that gap of a ministry. They don't have anything that's really that age. They don't have that 25 because you're too young to really take over, I guess, or to handle the whole thing, but you're too old to not know. Yeah, to be with youth or something like, so it's weird. So like I said, we don't have a space because even with me, I was in a choir.

Kevin (42:38.23)
to be right, right.

Karl Munroe (42:47.571)
I was in the choir with the moms and the dads, and I would leave the choir and go hang out with the kids, with their kids. And I would be one of the only young ones up there. And I would say, y'all come, and they're like, no, I don't wanna sing with my mama. Literally, they just didn't wanna do it. It's not the same. They liked seeing it, but they didn't wanna be a part of that. They wanted to be a part of something that was theirs. So a lot of times we don't have the space, and then we say,

Kevin (43:08.535)
Hmm.

Karl Munroe (43:17.591)
whatever and then we don't have the push meaning whatever it was it was a shift but it wasn't it used to be you coming to church no matter what i don't care what you're talking about who it is or whatever and then when you get to church you're going to be in something you're going to be usher you're going to be a this you're going to be a that and whether it came from the pastor the usher the mama of the church whoever it was a push for you to get

active for you to do something. It was a responsibility for you to handle yourself a certain way that we're going to go Easter. You going to be in church. It's going, it was that the push is now we've, we've leaned to that side. Like you said earlier, we lean to that, that Jesus loves everybody. You can do whatever you want to do side. And now you, we look just like the world. When you look just like the world for too long.

Kevin (44:15.02)
You are, it's evidence, yeah. That's it, yeah, yeah.

Karl Munroe (44:16.911)
Yes. So we don't have the space and then you don't have it. And that goes, I'm thinking about it from the young adult standpoint, but even the adults, if I'm not a singer, but Sunday morning, only thing that is always broadcast is singing or ushering. If that's not my thing, what else is there for me to do? And then...

Kevin (44:39.042)
Right.

Karl Munroe (44:44.799)
If it's not a space, but you have a push to say, hey, I need y'all to get active. And you say, hey, I don't, okay, well, let's do this. Let's hook you up. It's not a push. Nobody is pushing. I will say now, like I said, I walked in there. I did not want to do it. So I had a push. I had a space. I knew my space. But the push is what made me go.

And my pastor now, and I keep saying this stuff because this is stuff that has been changing me and shifting me to do what I have done in the past three years, that says, I'm not here for y'all to sit on these gifts. Whatever it is, I want you to cultivate it and use it. However I can help, any minister can help, let us know. And then you see the demonstration happen. It's not a always behind the scenes thing. And then you have to be in some type of

secret society to understand what's going on in that ministry. No, you eventually see these things, whether it's a servicing anointing, like singing, dancing, prophetic, or whether it's a behind the scenes, you're going to see the behind the scenes upfront some days because some days it's going to be where, oh man, that person, I see this person over there with a stack of sheets to lay on people.

Oh, intercessors, they don't just sit on the front row. Oh, I walked in and the intercessors were at the front door. Everybody was just speaking and praying as we were walking in. Wow, yeah, you have a responsibility. You have to set this tone sometimes. Sometimes it's gonna be heavy. And you know, you're privy to something that's gonna happen and you have a responsibility as a worship leader, as a prayer and worship team member to say, okay, we know.

This is going on in the world. This is going on with pastor. This is going on with whoever. And now you gotta really put on your armor and do that. That's the push. That's the space. I told you we don't have the discipline to put the chicken down, let alone to just get ourself up and come to a church, especially like me. You didn't wanna do it. Get a church and walk up there and say, okay, listen, that's what I wanna do. Let's make it happen. Most people don't have it. And if they have it...

Kevin (46:49.007)
Right.

Karl Munroe (47:03.979)
A lot of spaces are not available. What do you do? Oh, I write poems. Is there a space for you? Maybe, maybe not. So I think it's not necessarily making a space for every little thing, but for the big stuff, the common gifts and spaces and ages, that should be a no brainer. And I think we literally, as a church, those are the main things that.

Kevin (47:14.733)
Right.

Karl Munroe (47:34.239)
If you have an older church, you have a dying church. That's just what it is. If you have no space for the youth and young adults, who's going to take this stuff over? Who's going to keep it going? And if you don't have a space, which means most of the time, if you don't have a space, you don't necessarily have the push. You may have a push, no space, but if you don't have a space, most of the time, they're not going to push you because they don't even know where to push you.

Kevin (47:37.143)
Yeah.

Kevin (47:46.017)
Right.

Karl Munroe (48:04.795)
So, space and push.

Kevin (48:05.391)
Right. That's a very, very good point.

Having the space and a place and opportunity for people to recognize their gifts to work in their gifts to find out what their gifts are And then like you said not just having the space for but to have people push to hey You should be doing something Let's find out what your gifting is and so now you can get busy again use that thing with the talents God expects us to work and again it goes to what we're saying. I Think we now this will probably put a defeat

Karl Munroe (48:26.445)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (48:34.647)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (48:39.114)
of a lot of modern churches because again, they're secret sensitive. We just want people to come to the building and have a good time. They have a good time. They'll come back again. And I think to your point about the space and the push, one thing that church needs to do to add to that is let people understand that coming to church is just a small part because we've been right because

Karl Munroe (48:41.955)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (49:04.875)
Yeah, it's definitely the smallest part.

Kevin (49:08.054)
They think, most people think that everything in our Christian life revolves and crystallizes on Sunday that, okay, and my mother stepped on some toes. I usher church. A lot of people look at that as if that's a spiritual gift. And it's performance, it's good, it's admirable, you're serving. But is that the extent of what God has called you to do? That means

Karl Munroe (49:20.9)
Hmm.

Karl Munroe (49:25.615)
That's not...

Kevin (49:37.214)
So ushering is a byproduct of the actual gift. And that actual gift, you exercise it on Sunday, but you don't just exercise it on Sunday. And I think what happens is, right. So it could be, you could be serving, it could be serving, giving. But then, okay, are you using that same level of giving, serving, exhortation, teaching? Are you doing that?

Karl Munroe (49:43.203)
Right.

Karl Munroe (49:48.879)
What would be the spiritual gift?

Karl Munroe (49:57.513)
Uh huh.

Karl Munroe (50:05.6)
Uh huh.

Kevin (50:06.774)
the other six days. Because see, that's what happens. We make it seem like the church is the grand ball of performance for Christians. We make it seem as if everything I do got to be the church. And we've turned the church into the culmination where it's just the preparation. The church is the preparation so we can go into the world to use the gifts there. But the church doesn't give people that except expectation. We tell people,

Karl Munroe (50:09.531)
Correct.

Karl Munroe (50:27.532)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (50:33.24)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-mm.

Kevin (50:36.666)
You got to do this in church. And that's it. And if I sang in church, if I taught in church, if I preached in church, I did my job. But you go through the whole rest of the week, you ain't singing, you ain't preaching, you ain't teaching, you ain't serving. And then I remember God rest his soul, pastor back at the church we went to, he made this analogy. He said, a lot of times as churches,

Karl Munroe (50:40.3)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (50:46.799)
That's enough. Yep, that's enough.

Kevin (51:05.206)
we end up fishing in an aquarium.

Kevin (51:12.966)
You already caught those fish. So you can do all the singing, you can do all the ushering, you can have the great performances, but these are people who already know the Lord. And yes, you do those things, but how is that parlaying to that mountains of millions of people who don't know Jesus and God gave you that gift, and are you going to tell him, well, at least I did it on Sunday.

Karl Munroe (51:13.2)
Ha ha

Yep.

Karl Munroe (51:22.543)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Karl Munroe (51:32.471)
Right, right.

Karl Munroe (51:38.179)
Right, right. I tell, I was thinking the other day and I said, people, it's a bad thing, culture-wise, oh, you're living a double life, but most of the time as Christians, we live a full-time double life. We come to church and we put on a Sunday's best, which is fine, and we put our gift to use and we're the super usher, and we're the most nice, put on a smile.

Kevin (51:51.468)
Oh yeah.

Karl Munroe (52:07.155)
And then we get not even Sunday afternoon, you get out in the church and you are a whole nother person. And a guy, I was on Facebook one time and he asked some question. And my answer was, because I'm a Christian, da da. And he responded and said, give me the response that's not Christian. And I looked like I don't have a non-Christian response.

Kevin (52:13.943)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (52:35.599)
This is my response. And I'm telling you who I am, what, this is why I responded like this. It's not that I will put this down and respond another way. And that's what a lot of people think. And that's what a lot of people have acted on so many years of I'm this way and I know how to be worldly, which we all do, but at some point of time, some stuff falls off. I hate going to a club. Hate it. I used to be okay with it, but now...

Kevin (52:36.663)
right.

Karl Munroe (53:05.187)
man, I would be miserable the moment that I walk in the door. It's just certain things. If you dive in and grow in and change it and trying to move and you got to push and you got the space and you got a responsibility, you're not going to do certain things. So the double life is not going to work because one of those things, you serve two masters, you cannot serve two masters. And one of them gonna fall away.

And sometimes, unfortunately, people just leave the Christian because it's not fun or it's not, it's whatever their excuse is. But no, we live double lives a lot of times as Christians, and that's a big... The world is always watching. I take that back. Most of the time the Christians are the ones judging you more than the world. Somebody's always watching. Let's say that. Somebody's always watching. So you have to...

Kevin (53:56.802)
Somebody, yeah, somebody's watching.

Karl Munroe (54:02.187)
You have to know what you who you are and what you're trying to do. I was at work and it was a guy. He thought I wanted his girl so bad. Everybody at work knows I'm married to kids. And she was telling him, I don't want him. And he said, he's married. What that mean? And he did something to me. And I told her, I said, Hey, this is my last time coming to you as a little person. I'm going to go to him next time. And then by the time I got home and prayed.

My natural response was to her. I'm like, I'm about to handle this as a grown man, not coming to you as a girl and getting it not. But when I got home and prayed, and I said, who are you? That's literally the question I asked myself. Who are you? How are you writing this stuff on Instagram and posting and you're praying for people and doing this and you're at work and you walking around singing and sometimes speaking in tongues, whatever. And then the next thing somebody gonna hear about you or see you is getting into a whatever.

Wait, and I had to say, that's not who I am. Never did I speak about it again. Whatever he did, whatever he said, because I said, that's not who I am. Long as I'm not physically in danger or whatever, don't matter. And that's what it was. I didn't want to live a double life because I can act like him, but that's not who I am. And we can't live these double lives.

Kevin (55:27.318)
Wow, that's good. No, no, that was on point, man. And I like that because one of the things, again, the theme of the show, dealing with deficits and discipleship. These are conversations that a lot of times we don't have in church. These expectations, not the end of a lot of times churches don't give this, you know, because again, I've talked about an ad nauseum on the show. You know, people join the church, join the ministry.

Karl Munroe (55:28.643)
I don't even know how I got on double lines, but... Ha ha

Kevin (55:53.558)
find some people to fellowship with and that's it. But we don't set the realistic expectations of, hey, let me show you what the word says that God expects from you.

that now, like you just said, this is not just becoming part of a body. This is now the beginning of behavior modification, because now you have God literally living in you and the Bible says we're his temple. So if you're carrying God around and you're carrying his name, you have to conduct yourself as such. So like you said, a lot of people don't have that view. They say they're Christians, but they don't realize that they're carrying Christ.

Karl Munroe (56:18.859)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (56:32.645)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (56:34.07)
They don't realize that I have the Holy Spirit in me. And if I say I'm him, I belong to him, he belongs to me, then there's certain things, places I don't go. There's certain behaviors I don't do. There's certain things I don't say. And it's not because you forgot how to do it or forgot how to say it, and it's still something that you're growing in to do it better, but you have a point where you says, you know what, as you just said so well, this is not who I am.

Karl Munroe (56:35.108)
Huh.

Karl Munroe (56:44.845)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (56:51.692)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (57:02.194)
And the problem because like you said, and you said it very well, the double lives. When I'm on, let's keep it, keep it a bug. When I'm with my, when I'm with my people, when I'm online, oh, I'm posting any kind of stuff and I see people online all the time on Facebook and Instagram and these people, I'm like, wait a minute, but last, yesterday, you were putting scriptures up. Now, I can't even repeat what you just put up. But you know what I'm saying? So it's kind of like.

Karl Munroe (57:08.031)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karl Munroe (57:16.472)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (57:22.499)
Yeah, yeah.

Ha!

Kevin (57:29.002)
As Christians, we have not the episodes, we have identity crises. We say we belong to Christ, but we still have a foot firmly entrenched in the world. And I think it's, it's not a, the reason is not one thing. It's a myriad of things, but part of it is the church who is not presenting a standard.

Karl Munroe (57:34.606)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (57:45.467)
Threat.

Kevin (57:51.702)
that says if you belong to Christ, this is it. Even to the point, Carl, where a church is willing to say, I'm sorry, brother, we love you, but you can't be part of this fellowship if you're continuing to do this. You gotta be able to do that. To the detriment, and if that person doesn't wanna be, then it's hey, you know what, because guess what? That's what the word says to do. So these are things that, as Christians, but you got that, and then you have other Christians like us, and I talked about this before.

Karl Munroe (58:06.661)
Right.

Karl Munroe (58:15.289)
Yep.

Kevin (58:22.114)
We don't hold other Christians accountable either. We'll have a homeboy, a homegirl, and we know they're doing stuff they shouldn't be doing. And we don't intervene. We don't say anything. Well, I'm just gonna pray for them. Well, you do that too. But at what point do you pull Brother Kevin to the side? Hey, Kev. What, Kev, man, hey, you know what, bro? I'm your boy, but look, man, you, this ain't it, man. You gotta tighten up, you know.

Karl Munroe (58:26.062)
Right.

Karl Munroe (58:31.739)
for it.

Karl Munroe (58:37.775)
Yeah.

and get some correction.

Karl Munroe (58:50.571)
We'll take a side street real quick when you just said that. And I thought about a big word. I halfway hate this word, but judgment.

Karl Munroe (59:07.827)
I hate it because we misuse it so much. We make judgment calls every day. We make judgment calls throughout our whole lives. And one of the big things that the world uses as a defense, and then Christians use as a defense, don't judge me. Who are you to judge? And you just said, when do we hold each other accountable? The Bible said.

When I told you to get from around those people, Paul said it, when I told you to get from around those people, I wasn't talking about unbelievers. I was talking about those in the church. You have to judge them and we have to get it right. That's what he says. Now, of course, love, kindness, faith, we have to be those things. So in our judgment.

Kevin (59:48.119)
Yep.

Karl Munroe (01:00:04.759)
You can't have unrighteous judgment. You can't have overly aggressive judgment because the measure that you use will also be used against you. But you have to have some type of, hey, no, we can't do that. Hey, maybe we need to go this way. And that's in church wise, not non-believers. They can technically do what they want, worldly, but in the church, in the body.

I'm supposed to be able to come and say, nah brother, no, we're not doing that. And if you wanna do that, I can't stop you, but I can't be a part of that. And you can't be a part of this over here either. Now, if you use that little bit of, even that's logic, that's your sense. Even the world will say, hey, first of all, jobs. Let's use that as an example. You can't do whatever you want to at a job, period.

Kevin (01:00:39.809)
Right.

Kevin (01:00:56.854)
Right, right, right.

Karl Munroe (01:01:01.279)
And when you do something, they judge the action. And they say, we no longer want you, or they give you a slap on the wrist and you're right up, whatever the case may be. And if the actions continue, that's detrimental to them and let you go. God has laws. He has laws, rules. He has these things set in place. And he's not here to Jesus not come to change the laws. He obeyed all the laws.

Kevin (01:01:18.202)
Yep. Right.

Kevin (01:01:25.134)
Mm-hmm. You're right. Yep.

Karl Munroe (01:01:30.715)
So we have to, like you said, we gotta be Christians, not live these double lives. And you said earlier, fear of failure. I'm gonna add fear of rejection. A lot of people take rejection and they think people's rejection is God's rejection. Oh, if I do this and I'm not right yet, and I can't, and God, that's how he wants you. He wants you to come. Yeah.

I need that person because once again when I read in the Bible, every single person that he used was jacked up. They were messed up. Not one of them was, I take that back, I said not one, because Job was, they said he was an upright man, a righteous man. It was a couple people that he trusted in that way and they didn't necessarily do anything. But you talk about somebody like David?

Kevin (01:02:06.477)
Yeah.

Kevin (01:02:14.905)
Yeah, upright.

Karl Munroe (01:02:27.415)
Man, please, you talking about somebody like Paul, aka Saul? Come on. These people were crazy in some of the things, but as crazy as David was, he was a man at the die zone heart. As crazy as Paul, aka Saul, he wrote all of these great books that we read to this day. Used to kill Christians, it became one of the most prolific ones. Come on now.

We all messed up. We can't live the double life, but when you do mess up, it's a mess up, not a lifestyle. If you do it every day, it's not a mess up. It's intentional. So we can't live the double life, man. We just gotta be serious. We gotta be serious.

Kevin (01:03:07.292)
Right. Yeah, that's intentional at that point. That's intentional at that point.

Kevin (01:03:17.838)
And the part what you mentioned about the rejection, I like that part too because not just in the sense of, okay, I'm afraid of being rejected by people because if I say how I feel about Christ and people are going to look at me funny and reject me. The thing is, and this is what goes back to just the fundamental truths that we need to let people know when they become a Christian. Rejection for a Christian should be an expectation.

Karl Munroe (01:03:41.95)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (01:03:45.898)
Like you should not go into this thing thinking you're not going to be rejected because the Bible says it clearly. I'm sending you out into a world that is anti-Christian. That is not the Bible says the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. So when you're going out, God say, I know these people are going to reject you. I know they're not going to hear it, but your job is to go through it and do it. Use your gifts to make people accountable.

Karl Munroe (01:03:46.965)
Right.

Karl Munroe (01:03:58.317)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (01:04:04.699)
Correct.

Karl Munroe (01:04:13.088)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (01:04:13.45)
So, but the thing is, we try to coddle people. And again, on the other end of the spectrum, God loves you and he has a plan for your life. We talk so much about what God is going to do for us. We do not talk about what God expects from us and what that entails. And when you do what God has called you to do, we talked about it earlier.

Karl Munroe (01:04:24.914)
Mmm.

Karl Munroe (01:04:31.628)
Right, right.

Kevin (01:04:41.682)
It's growth, it's challenging, it's painful, and you are going to face rejection. But you still have to do it. And that's something that we are totally remiss at telling people about as far as an expectation for a Christian. Yeah.

Karl Munroe (01:04:50.048)
Yes, sir.

Karl Munroe (01:04:53.7)
Yes, sir.

Karl Munroe (01:04:59.979)
Yeah, they rejected Jesus. So you, whatever he went through, I promise you, you're gonna go through some way, somehow. Yep.

Kevin (01:05:06.29)
He said it. He said, if they, he said, they denied the teacher, they're going to deny the followers. He said, if they persecuted me, they're going to persecute you. One of my, one of the first scriptures I memorized is Acts. It says that we must endure many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.

Karl Munroe (01:05:25.284)
Yep.

Kevin (01:05:25.546)
We don't like to talk about that kind of stuff. We just want to talk about the fluff. God gonna bless you. And if you do this, do that, say this, go here. If you serve God faithfully, he's got a plan for your life. He's gonna bless you. Bless in the city, bless in the field, bless when you come, bless when you go. And we use the scriptures out of context. Don't get me started on that. Let me start on that. And then, so we create an expectation of.

Karl Munroe (01:05:28.868)
No.

Karl Munroe (01:05:32.683)
Uh-uh.

Karl Munroe (01:05:44.948)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (01:05:47.858)
All I got to do is love the Lord and I'm going to be blessed everywhere I go. That's it. I don't have to do nothing. I don't have to talk to nobody about God. I got to read my scriptures. I got to pray. I got to evangelize. Right. They're not.

Karl Munroe (01:05:54.061)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (01:05:57.743)
I was just gonna say that's because they're not reading. Because the moment you open up a book, and what I like to do is I'll go, right now I'm doing First Samuel. So of course it's David, well Samuel, but it's David. And if you read about these people from beginning to end.

you will see that David was very blessed, but very troubled. He went through struggles. And that's what it is. Jesus, the most blessed, the most struggled. That's just how it goes. And we, like you said, we don't tell, it's all roses and love and all of that, which is great. But yeah, the greater the...

Kevin (01:06:21.334)
Yeah. Oh yes.

Kevin (01:06:42.334)
It's not the whole story.

Karl Munroe (01:06:47.607)
Responsibility is greater than sacrifice, the greater the suffering. So it's not all roses, but we have to be realistic in what the expectations are and we also have to be forthcoming in what the rewards are, because that's what gives you hope. If you just think that you're gonna be suffering forever and with no reward, who wants to do that? So...

We get it messed up and we just reward reward. He's gonna, I know the plans that I have for you, plans to prosper you and give you hope. Yeah, that's great. And yeah, he's gonna make you line on a beautiful green pasture. Yeah, that's awesome. He's gonna make your enemies your footstool. Yeah, but you not realizing that the enemy being your footstool don't mean they close to you. That means they gonna hurt you. They gonna talk about you. They gonna do all of that stuff because they gotta be close enough to sit at your table. Prepare a table for my enemies.

Kevin (01:07:44.654)
All right.

Karl Munroe (01:07:45.955)
They gotta be close to you and you don't realize that stuff comes with, ah man, keep your enemies close. Yeah, they're gonna have to be close. That's your audience. Yeah, you gotta deal with them. Yeah, you gotta, and you gotta keep loving them. That's, that stuff is hard. But the reward, you gotta table it. You, you, you got, you got green passions. That's the reward of it. And we can't just be.

Kevin (01:07:58.817)
Yep.

Karl Munroe (01:08:14.891)
reward heavy. You gotta be realistic.

Kevin (01:08:15.65)
And let me piggyback on that too. And this is definitely something where maturity comes in your growth. And I wouldn't expect a new believer to have this perspective. But as you grow in Christ, you realize the reward is not what you thought it was. You realize that the reward is not

Karl Munroe (01:08:39.531)
My, my, my.

Kevin (01:08:45.282)
what he's going to do for you, even though he does those things. The reward is God himself. The reward is he knows Kevin's name. The reward is he knows Carl's name. The reward is he has a relationship with you. That he, the God of the universe, know dirty, sinful, raggedy, messed up, jacked up, and he still loves me. It's...

Karl Munroe (01:08:49.684)
Even though he did it.

Karl Munroe (01:08:53.517)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (01:08:58.308)
Yeah, yeah.

Karl Munroe (01:09:08.489)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (01:09:12.494)
Uh huh.

Kevin (01:09:14.834)
And the fact that he even regards me at all. In the fact that, and that's something I'm working on some stuff with the show. As you grow in Christ, Carl, the reward is I know him. The reward is, and I want more of him. I mean, yeah, give me the green pastures and give me those things. But you know what? That's cool. But I want to know him. I want

Karl Munroe (01:09:15.227)
Uh huh.

Karl Munroe (01:09:19.618)
Mm-hmm.

Karl Munroe (01:09:30.755)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (01:09:35.059)
Yeah.

Karl Munroe (01:09:43.28)
I'm trying to get you.

Kevin (01:09:43.49)
I want to know him. I want to, you know, Paul said I want to share in his suffering so I can know more of him. So when Paul and you guys were writing these scriptures, Carl, they weren't thinking about creature comforts. They were saying, I want to know him. And I always say this, I always say this, bro, heaven is not heaven if God ain't there.

Karl Munroe (01:09:52.)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Karl Munroe (01:09:58.756)
Right.

Correct.

Kevin (01:10:08.918)
That's what makes heaven because we think about heaven. We think about what is it? Street's paved with gold and music. That's all wonderful. That's great. But heaven would just be another place. If God ain't there, it says that we will see him as he is face to face. That's what I want. That's what I want, because.

Karl Munroe (01:10:09.932)
Right.

Karl Munroe (01:10:16.18)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Many mansions.

Karl Munroe (01:10:23.512)
without power.

Karl Munroe (01:10:30.627)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (01:10:34.198)
Like you said, what's the point of going through all this? What's the point of going through the heartache? Because let me say it like this. If your surface is strictly because of what God can give you here, you are selling yourself for short. Because no matter what you get here, it ain't gonna last and it ain't going with you. So why are you selling for something that's transient when you got something that's eternal?

And the knowledge of just saying that you can know this God that you're serving. That's the blessing. And when you get that perspective, Carl, anything else he give you is cake. You know what? I appreciate, you know, thank you for that job. Thank you for that car, but it still ain't as good as this. That's that's and again, I said that that's not something.

Karl Munroe (01:11:08.479)
Uh-uh. Right.

Karl Munroe (01:11:14.56)
Oh yeah, that's changes.

Karl Munroe (01:11:21.242)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin (01:11:27.938)
the person who joined the church last week, last month, last year again. But as you grow your perspective of what you're doing it for and what a blessing is will change.

Karl Munroe (01:11:31.491)
Yeah, they're not gonna get it.

Karl Munroe (01:11:40.139)
Yeah, Jesus, you are the miracle. When I heard that's a J.J. Harrison song, and I'm like, you are the miracle. And the more I said it, the more I got it. Hmm, yeah, he can do this and do that or whatever, but technically, the miracle ain't the miracle. Jesus is the miracle. Oh, I gotta have him. If I have him, that flows from him.

Kevin (01:12:02.143)
See you soon.

Kevin (01:12:08.347)
Exactly.

Karl Munroe (01:12:10.719)
And my latest fast, every time I fast now, it's like I'm finding myself more and more saying, I'm not even asking for nothing. Even if it's a big thing, yeah, I just wanna get closer. I just wanna, because right now there's so much going on, I just wanna carve out specific time. And if I know, because I know if I get close enough to you, if I focus enough on you.

Kevin (01:12:19.635)
I just want to spend time with you.

Kevin (01:12:31.174)
Exactly.

Karl Munroe (01:12:38.895)
you're gonna handle that stuff. So why keep worrying myself about something that, somebody asked me the other day, I gotta change my schedule at work. And they asked me, they say, hey, did you talk to this person? I say, nope. They say, why not? I say, I've done all I can do. After you've done all you can, stand. I'm good. And guess what? I walked into work yesterday, hey, I need to talk to you, I wanna switch schedules with you and that other.

Kevin (01:12:39.567)
Exactly.

Kevin (01:12:59.083)
Yeah

Karl Munroe (01:13:08.867)
Y'all like I said, thank you Lord. Because I wasn't worried about it at all. But the more I say, no, I'm focused on him. I'm focused on, yeah, I need to get up seven o'clock. I need to pray. I need to get, what, okay, back to second Samuel. But why did David, once I do that, man, please. I got a ticket coming in the other day from seeing my mom. The police officer was puzzled, because I was looking, I said, yeah, you got me. And he was like, what did I say?

Kevin (01:13:09.494)
He worked it out. Yeah.

Karl Munroe (01:13:38.507)
I mean, I worry. The moment I got back home, oh yeah, boom, money in the bank. If I would have worried, I'm pretty sure it would have been a pause on that money. Because what you worry about the most is where you trust God the least.

Kevin (01:13:47.721)
Hmm. There it is.

Kevin (01:13:53.715)
Yeah. Wow.

Kevin (01:13:59.566)
Mm, that's good. That's good.

Karl Munroe (01:14:02.991)
So I'm, we good, man. We gotta do it.

Kevin (01:14:04.806)
Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. That's awesome. So I know we can keep going. We can keep going. This is good. But I don't want to believe the time. You was a family man. So I don't want to deprive you from the wife and the kids and everything. So.

Karl Munroe (01:14:13.495)
Yeah, man.

Karl Munroe (01:14:21.235)
Yeah, he's been acting up, I can hear him.

Kevin (01:14:23.558)
So we're going to let you go ahead, man. And again, thank you so much, brother, for being on. This would not be the last time you'd be on the show. And it was a blessing for me to dialogue with you. And I know we're going to bless those who hear it. So for those who watch it here, of course, as I always say, make sure you like, share, subscribe. Give me some comments on my YouTube. Join the family, man. Make sure you make Beyond A Bit Addicts something that is a part of your regular routine, man. We're trying to do it, do some great things here.

Karl Munroe (01:14:33.38)
No.

Karl Munroe (01:14:45.252)
Yeah, man.

Kevin (01:14:52.912)
Thank you to my guest, my brother, Carl Moreau. He'll be on again another time soon. And as I always say, make sure your light shines brightest for the Lord Jesus Christ beyond the benediction. Until next time, be blessed.

Karl Munroe (01:15:07.425)
Yeah.