Christian Maturity with Pastor Ludence Robinson

In this episode, Pastor Ludence Robinson Jr. shares his spiritual journey, insights on Christian growth, church leadership, and the importance of authentic faith. Join us for a candid conversation about faith, church culture, and living out true Christianity.

Transcript

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Kevin (00:01.186)
What's up, family? Here again, another episode of Beyond the Benedicts. It's been a while since I've done an episode, but guess what? I got a bonus one today. It's not just me, but a long time since I've had a guest, and I don't just have a guest. This brother right here is if you think I'm any way erudite in scripture, you can attribute it to this brother right here. this is this is my big brother in the faith. He's really been instrumental in me just growing in the scriptures, knowing.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (00:11.983)
You

Ludence Robinson Jr. (00:25.439)
Thank

Kevin (00:30.934)
being able to determine what the word actually says, all the things. I mean, put it this way, I think I went bald because of him. He was born first, so I think I wanted to copy him. So I went bald. He was born first, but now I think I gotta be like my brother. So let me go ahead and shave my head. He's rubbing off on me. But yes, for those who don't know my antioch family, y'all know him affectionably as the professor, Pastor Ludis Robinson.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (00:42.035)
You mean fighting? That is true. That is true. You're right. That is true. You're true. I'm rubbing off. I'm rubbing off.

Kevin (01:00.088)
But I want him for those who don't know him, I want him to just introduce himself and just give us a brief just overview, to kind of like highlight your your walk with the Lord, how you became a pastor and what led you to Christ.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:14.526)
Well, first and foremost, just off the bat, am as, who do call you now? Pasituma? That's what they call you now, Pasituma? As Pasituma said, I'm Ludens Robinson Jr. I've been in walking rather with the Lord.

Kevin (01:22.937)
here you go. You know me, I'm just Kevin, right. Kevin is good.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:44.477)
for over, I would say, close to 40-something years, if I can say that. So I've been walking with God for quite some time. I've been in the pastorate now for about 25, 26 years. And I have been very instrumental in the way

this congregation, this local congregation have been to some degree effective in this community in which we reside. So just to give you a little background on myself, I'm an islander. I'm from St. Thomas Virgin Islands, one of the jewels, one of the hidden jewels in the Caribbean, of course. I would say it's the best island. know, I might have some, you know.

Kevin (02:30.925)
Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (02:42.448)
some kickback with that, but yeah, yeah, just a slight bias. But it is in fact a place where I think, you know, don't die and go to heaven before going to St. Thomas. That's what I would say. And that's basically, you know, I mean, you know, that's basically it. I came to know Christ, I would say, at the age of around 17. And

Kevin (02:42.859)
Look slightly biased, slightly biased.

Kevin (02:55.341)
Okay, all right.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (03:12.941)
I've been walking with the Lord ever since. Of course, there have been some ups and downs, some pitfalls, some slip and slide and all that kind of stuff. nevertheless, mean, it's all good. I can say that I have grown a great deal in my walk with God. it's been...

It's been very, very a phenomenal type of experience that I've had. I didn't want the responsibility or the task. At the age of 17, man, I wanted to party, dude. That was like, for me, that was prime time. You know what I'm saying?

Kevin (03:59.01)
Yeah. Yeah. I got you.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (04:01.336)
Yeah, wanted to do what I wanted to do, you know? And I felt at that time, I felt that God was trying to just kind of reign in my parade. And I was like, you know, I'll wait until I get like 90 years old before I give my life to the Lord, you know? So when I'm ready to croak, know, ready to die, you know, I give my life over to God. But obviously God had something else in mind. So he kind of, you know, kind of...

Kevin (04:17.197)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (04:21.078)
Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (04:31.011)
kind of threw my plans off and kind of put his plans in place. So that's basically it. From there, went to, of course I accepted Christ. Like I said, at the age of 17, I got involved in various church affiliations. For instance, my mom attended a Calvary Baptist Church.

while my father was a Methodist. So, and then of course eventually we all ended up at the Methodist church, which I didn't stay long. Interestingly enough, I stopped going to church at age of nine. So I didn't, yeah, I didn't attend, I didn't really attend church anymore after that. I remember the last time I went was when my mom sent me and my sister to go, you know.

Kevin (05:03.574)
Mm. Okay.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (05:29.24)
to church and I kind of diverted the plans and I went to the reservoir that we had by our house and I stayed there until time was up and then I came home and you know my mom asked me how it was church I said it was great. We had a great time. But you know after that I never recall going back until like I said at the age of 17 and I have this friend of mine who had

Kevin (05:40.907)
Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (05:57.655)
He had gotten to some Bible studies at his school and he decided that he wanted to make Christ his Savior and he came and kind of witnessed to me. I didn't really want to hear it the time to you the truth because like I said earlier, I felt like God was raining on my parade and I was going to wait until I was 90 before I give myself to God. so I kind of ran from that whole ordeal. But God, after that night,

God kind of stayed on me, so He never really let me go. You know what saying? He never really let me go. So I just continued to do my own thing until the Lord decided that this is what He wanted me to do. I got into... Of course, I was still going to school at the time. I was in, I think it was, what was it? I was in my junior, senior year.

of school, high school. it has been a ride ever since, a very interesting ride. I started a Bible study in my school at that time. I got a couple of Christians together and we just started kind of just studying the Word of God.

getting familiar with it. We would have arguments, would have debates, we would, I mean, it would be the whole, you know, enchilada, you know what I mean? And then from there, of course, I got involved in Seven Day Adventism, which was...

Ludence Robinson Jr. (07:42.805)
what I thought was God's church at the time. If you ask me that now, I'm gonna tell you hell to the nah. Can we say hell to the nah in this broadest biker? Yeah, I know. But it happened. All right, okay, got you. But nevertheless, I went through the whole Adventism thing. And even before that, I used to go to church with my...

Kevin (07:51.246)
Too late now? Well I I I may or may not edit that out. We'll see. You good, brother. You good.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (08:12.722)
My aunt was a church of God of prophecy, so I did Pentecostal, I did Catholic, I did various denominations just looking for sort of a fit for me. unfortunately for me, my mom's mother was, my grandmother was a Seventy Aventus. I didn't know that. And she had books that she had left at the house.

So I began reading these books, not knowing like they were Adventist material. I just thought they were Christian material. So once I read them, my dad, of course, he rented the downstairs of our house. And so a lady who actually lives there now, currently to this time, she's been there for 40 years. She's a seven day Adventist. And so she invited me to the crusade. And so when I went to the crusade,

I was listening to this guy, he was saying the same thing I was reading all along. So I was like, man, this is the truth. You find this is how I felt. You know, at that time, you this is God's truth. And so eventually I joined. And then, of course, I went to seminary after that, to a seminary down in Trinidad and Tobago. was South Caribbean college at the time.

Caribbean Union College at the time and while there of course I

I've some encounters, right? And when I say encounters, I mean I begin to wrestle with my understanding of scripture versus my understanding of Adventism.

Kevin (10:07.627)
Hmm, I need too.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (10:08.633)
And so when both of them clashed because of one professor that I had, a professor that I believe Tuma was honest in his approach to the scriptures. He came to class one day, he said to us, it was probably about, I don't know, maybe 30 of us in the class, and all preachers. And so he came into the class one day, said, he said, gentlemen, I want you to do three things for me.

I want you

pray to God or develop a prayer life with God. I want you to study and read the epistles of Paul and the other apostles. And then thirdly, I want you to read widely.

I didn't understand at the time. So I kind of let it marinate for a minute in my head. I'm like, OK, so develop a prayer life with God. Read and study the epistles of Paul and the other apostles. And then read whatever you get in your hand. Just read it. Just whatever it is, the newspaper, magazine, whatever it is. And what he was telling us essentially was, if you

study the apostles and their writings. You'll be able to tell between what's light and what's darkness.

Kevin (11:37.897)
Mm. Makes sense.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (11:39.471)
because it'll be clear to you what's smoke and what's real fire. Because know, folk always say, when there's smoke, there's fire, right? Right, obviously. Right, yeah. But you sometimes it could be a car smoking, you know, and not necessarily fire. You follow what I'm saying?

Kevin (11:47.287)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're right.

Kevin (12:01.909)
I get you you own it, brother. You own it.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (12:02.575)
You know, it could be, I'm just saying, it could be some type of mill where smoke is not necessarily fire going on. You know what I'm saying? But my point being is that he opened me up to understanding what

Ludence Robinson Jr. (12:28.972)
what you are now to do as Christians when it comes to the Word of God and the Word of men.

Kevin (12:37.133)
Hm. Gotcha.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (12:38.03)
because that's where the tension always resides. that's kind like it came back, you know, I mean, I have a long story, dude. I mean, it's gonna take up many podcasts for this. You know what saying? It's gonna make, I mean, cause it's a whole, I mean, it's a whole, you know, I could talk forever just on this, you know.

Kevin (12:51.445)
I see.

Okay, I got you. I got you. Okay.

Kevin (13:05.175)
Hm. Okay.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (13:06.178)
But just to give you just a brief synopsis, I went from there. was going to... Well, once my professors said or told us about what we needed to do, I then began writing papers that were against Adventism. My professors, my other professors wanted to fail me because I wasn't agreeing with school. It was serious, man. Yeah.

Kevin (13:33.357)
Hmm. Wow.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (13:36.141)
And so, of course, eventually, of course, I graduated. I would have, I think if I had remained in Adventism, I probably would have been, some of my colleagues, some of my classmates right now are presidents of conferences.

You know what I'm saying? I mean, they're presidents of conferences, you know? And I was, quote unquote, their leader, if you will, or their student leader. You know what I'm saying? So I could only imagine what I would have been if I had stayed in agitism, you know? But that was not where God wanted me to be. And my decision to leave was just...

Kevin (14:01.303)
Right.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (14:27.797)
based solely upon what the text taught. So I left as a result of that. Came, you know, I went through a whole persecution type situation, almost like Paul being let down in the basket, you know. And I found myself, yeah, and I found myself here in Miami. See, this is I'm trying to tell you too, but this is a whole nother podcast. You feel what I'm saying? And so I came to Miami.

Kevin (14:43.213)
Mm-hmm. Wow.

Kevin (14:52.737)
I see. I see. Okay.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (14:57.725)
as a result of that. I came up here actually for two weeks, just so your viewers would know I reside in Miami. I came for two weeks, months. I didn't go back to the Virgin Islands until about seven to eight years later.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (15:22.122)
You know? Of course, you know, in that time, I found myself here. I came to Antioch Missionary Baptist Church and remained here ever since. So this is kind of where I'm at right now, at this, to this point. And that's where me and you met. Yeah, that's where we both came into, you know, yeah.

Kevin (15:39.278)
And that's and that's where and that's where I encountered him. That's where I encountered him. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, good. And you know, you're right. Just your journey is is is astounding to just kind of recapture and kind of go through. I would say, you know, just just as an aside, sounds like a book to me. Sound like some of you may want to be kind of writing down because that's that's a story. That's a story. yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (16:03.485)
I know, there you go, there you go. And it might be, it might be something, you might be right. I have some other, I have some books I'm working on right now, but they don't have, they have nothing to do with my journey from, you know, from my Genesis relationship with the Lord to now. And it has nothing to do with that, but you might be onto something there, Doc. I think I might have to put that on paper.

Kevin (16:29.313)
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's something that that everybody that's something everyone can relate to, especially if you're a Christian, which is kind of the crux of what I want us to talk about today. It's growth and maturity. because like you just mentioned, you went through all of these different denominations. There may be someone who may listen to this or watch this podcast and they're in that, they're in that transition. They may have just left the church or they may be searching or trying to see, you know, should I be Baptist? Should I be Methodist? Should I be

Ludence Robinson Jr. (16:39.301)
Yeah.

Right.

Kevin (16:57.983)
Episcopality. So they're struggling and juggling with those different things, not realizing that, you know, ultimately there's one truth. so now as as a role in your role as a pastor, and again, you've been a pastor for like you mentioned for quite a while, and I c I came up and you've been very, again, I I can't I can't say this more enough, you've been very instrumental in my growth and my development. You know, over your time as a pastor, what are some things that you think that Christians should be the are essentials?

Ludence Robinson Jr. (17:08.235)
.

Kevin (17:28.141)
for Christians to grow in their faith. Cause I think a lot of times, I'm sure you agree, a lot of people think in a lot of churches, they focus on becoming a Christian, but they don't focus on growing and maturing as a Christian, which is, which is, you can make the case, way more important. So what would you say are some things that maybe some basic things that the average Christian needs needs to be doing in order to grow or mature as a Christian?

Ludence Robinson Jr. (17:42.566)
Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (17:52.57)
Well, that's a great question. think for the most part.

You need a prayer life with God as a Christian. Because we're talking about us being Christians already. So now we've been discussing the idea of not being a Christian or need to be born again first. So we're already in the context of being a child of God. So it is first and foremost prayer. Because I think through prayer, you and I develop a relationship.

Kevin (18:17.505)
Right, correct, correct.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (18:32.548)
with the Lord Jesus Christ. Or if we want to put it more technically, with God the Father. Because our relationship with God the Father is only mediated through Christ himself. So that's very, important. us, given the privilege of having a relationship with God or being able to talk

with the God or conversate with the God of heaven, or converse rather with the God of heaven, more of a, we develop more of an intimate relationship with Him. So I think prayer and of course, as Jesus would say, prayer and fasting, because nothing happens without the two kind of coming together. that first and foremost, I think ought to be the the impetus or the drive of our

prayer and fasting. That's our theology. I could say that. That's our theology. That's where we need to really get deep down inside. I think after that we should have what I call a devotional life. So the devotional life is a basic life of kind of living in that atmosphere.

Kevin (19:37.269)
Okay.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (19:55.524)
It's kind of like living in that frequency where you have this relationship with God So you're kind of communicating with God like kind of throughout the day You're just having this you know ain't too serious. Amen. You're down on your knees You ain't prostrate on the floor. You just having you know just just breathing and and living in that kind of In that kind of atmosphere, it's more like a devotional life. So of course your your your reading

You're studying and you're kind of hearing from God as it were, as to the direction of your life. Number three, think the knowing the things that God has said in His word, the promises that He's made, the principles He have laid out for us, and the power that we are,

that is available, amen, for us to experience, I think is number three. And then I think four is...

You having fellowship with people of like mind, right? You developing good relationships with people, not necessarily who necessarily think the same, but people who are on that path, right? That really love the Lord Jesus Christ, know, willing to not necessarily have arguments with you, but a person

Kevin (21:24.996)
Gotcha.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (21:36.907)
who is open for discussion, to have meaningful and enriching discussions with you. I think that's key. And then perhaps the fifth thing. So I will call this my grace tips, right? Five being a number of grace, my grace tips. And then find a well-balanced church, man, a church that is well-balanced, not a church that's too far on the left, no one that's too far on the right.

Kevin (21:50.54)
Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (22:04.341)
but a well-balanced church that teaches and preaches the word of God in its entirety. That would be my five grace tips on how to grow effectively and meaningfully in your relationship with the Lord.

Kevin (22:25.623)
Okay. Good, good. So now let's let's let's talk about something a little we're gonna we're gonna pull back the the layers and get some dirty laundry. So so be so again, being being in the past of a church, and again, I know and so and to those who are are not familiar, Antioch the church is a pretty nice big church. It's not a small church, it's a pretty nice size church in that area. what are some things that you think the churches

Ludence Robinson Jr. (22:35.757)
boy.

Kevin (22:54.621)
Not necessarily you don't have to go at this particular churches, but with it the church in general, there may be derelict in doing to facilitate Christians growing. So you may have people that go to church, but you and I have talked about it before offline, of course. There are a lot of churches who don't value maturing their Christians. They believe as long as you come every week, pay your tithes, join the ministry if you want to, but other than that, as long as you're coming, paying your tithes, you're good. And they pretty much the buck stops there. But you and I both know as you just articulated.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (22:59.743)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (23:23.737)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kevin (23:23.979)
God expects us to grow. So, what are some things you think that churches are derelicting doing to facilitate Christians' growth?

Ludence Robinson Jr. (23:34.642)
To be honest, I don't think churches are doing anything.

Kevin (23:37.609)
Mm. Okay, smile on it.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (23:40.734)
I think for the most part, when you look at some churches, as you have said, the barometer is their giving and attendance.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (23:58.632)
That's it.

And as long as you're coming every Sunday, as long as you're giving every Sunday, you're growing in the Lord. You're maturing in God. You hear what saying? Because that's something that churches, quote unquote, can measure. See, the issue is measuring. And I think that's where the issue lies. You can't really measure church growth. You follow what I'm saying? And the reason why is because Jesus made it absolutely clear in John chapter 3.

He says, everyone who's born of the spirit, you can't tell. It's like the wind blowing.

You don't know where it's coming from or where it's going. All you can see is the effects of it. And for men, men don't like to measure those effects.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (24:52.091)
You know, so because if you say, let's say for instance, if you say you have a, let's say you have a prayer life with the Lord, how do you measure that?

Ludence Robinson Jr. (25:07.918)
Or if you study your word, how do you measure that? How do you measure that study? If your life has been changed and transformed by the Lord Jesus Christ, you can't really measure it. People can see the effects of it, but you can't really measure it.

Like I said earlier in my opening statement, I've been walking with the Lord for 40 years. Now, would I say that I'm a 40 year old in the Lord?

or maybe 15.

You get in sense of what I'm saying? So sometimes, you know, I think there is this quote unquote, this kind of false assumption that we make as it relates to growth and Christian growth, right? And we tend to look at, you know, more hardline things. Are they doing this? How are they acting with people? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And that's how we begin to measure kind of like, you know, who's walking with God and who's not, you know? Like if I were to ask you, Tuma, was Paul walking with God in the beginning, according to Luke chapter eight, where he is making havoc of the church? If I say, was Paul walking with God? What would you tell me?

Ludence Robinson Jr. (26:49.186)
Who your answer be?

Kevin (26:49.921)
Hmm. That's a good question.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (26:53.059)
You

Kevin (26:57.725)
I would say, I would say yes, but his theology was off because in his mind he was following the tenets of the the scriptures that they had at the time, which was the old testament. And of course, Christianity at the time, as you know, no what is this Christianity? So to them, at least to Paul and those other persons, they thought it was a heretical sect. so to them, but to to him in his mind, and based on if you follow the the scriptures and the the Pharisees and such at the time.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (27:08.28)
Right. Right.

Kevin (27:27.541)
He was following God in essence.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (27:30.039)
Now, now, let me push the envelope just a bit further. Would you say that he had a walk? Was he walking with the Lord?

Kevin (27:42.761)
Yeah, not that's a different question.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (27:43.353)
And the reason why I ask you that is because when you read what Paul says, example, in Galatians chapter 1, Paul says, God called me from my mother's womb.

See him before he anything. You know I'm saying? But you looking at, us looking at him, I'd be like, nah man, that dude ain't no way God could be using this Negro. You follow what I'm saying? Ain't no way. But all this time, God is kind of like behind the scenes, working on this guy. And we have no clue.

Kevin (28:02.36)
Mm. Yeah. Sure.

Kevin (28:16.397)
I guess no.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (28:27.881)
All we see is this is what he's doing. So we don't count him out already. You know what I'm So again, bringing back to the point that I think what we assume or we judge, we prejudge, like, okay, this person is walking with God because, they pay their tithes. They come to church regularly. They do this, they do that. And the guy who's out there who don't really, know, he ain't got the money to really pay tithes.

But yet he is, you know, he's cooking for homeless people on the street that we know nothing of. When we see him on Sunday, you might say, hey, man, that dude there, he don't pay no tides. He ain't even, he don't know God like that.

Kevin (29:13.08)
Mm-hmm. Just a game what you say.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (29:14.955)
You follow what saying? those kinds of things, man, I think, you know, it derails us sometimes, you know, and this is why I think Jesus and even Paul and Peter and the rest of them talks about how important it is for us not to judge by appearances, you know, because we never know. We never know where people are.

Kevin (29:39.491)
Now, you're right, and I agree. But now let me ask this. In in in in that line of thinking, would you agree that yes, we can't judge based on appearances, but I think the scripture does bear out there should be some fruit that's being bore bear that, you know, because the scripture talks about bearing fruit that's consistent with repentance. So you're right. I think looking at a person and saying, you go to church and pay your tithes, you must be walking with the Lord is inaccurate.

But I do think it may be you agree that maybe that's not the litmus, but there should be something in some area where someone could surmise that, you know, you are walking with the Lord. It may not be as tangible as ties church attendance, but it should be something evident in your life. For example, you said you've been walking with the Lord for 40 years. I would, I think it's a safe assumption, you're not the same Ludas Robinson now that you were 40 years ago.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (30:36.435)
Yeah, but you see that right there is a very, important question because...

Ludence Robinson Jr. (30:44.37)
Let's, for instance, if I would, 40 years ago, my walk with God was...

Initially, was kind of, you know, it was more like, it was more radical. I would say I had more of a radical disposition when it came to the things of God, right? As I grew, I became more conservative. But now I think I've reverted back to radical again.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (31:15.76)
I'm just saying. And that's because, you know, because I think now, you know, 20 years ago, you know, I might have some, I might have a totally different answer for you. You feel what I'm saying? But now today, yeah, I think I've grown yes in my mind, in the way I approach even scripture now, or even how I approach God.

Kevin (31:16.686)
Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (31:44.497)
You know, I think all of that has morphed, if you will, into something else. So yes, is that evidence. That evidence is in fact there. And so yeah, I would agree that there is some change that has occurred, right? But I think when we talk about the things that

quote unquote, churches are looking for.

then that's a whole different argument because I don't think church looking for how, ain't nobody measuring how much you love your brother.

Kevin (32:27.938)
Yeah. That's intangible. You can't you can't yeah, you can't measure that. You can't measure that.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (32:28.986)
or care for your, yeah, it ain't measuring that, but that's where it's at. That's where God, you know, that's where God's measuring stick is, you know? Jesus makes it absolutely clear. You are my disciples indeed, if you love one another, we can't really measure that, right? Unless, you know, unless we say, okay, you know, this brother is really, tell you how this brother took care of me if I had an issue. If your brother has an issue, then we can measure it. Just like, that's basically what James says.

Kevin (32:34.68)
Right, right.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (32:57.573)
Right? James says, if you know your brother's in need and you address those needs, then God's love is there. But if you know your brother is in need and you refuse to address those needs, then God's love is absent. You follow what I'm saying? So this whole piece about, in order to see it or in order for it to be evident, it seems as if...

Ludence Robinson Jr. (33:25.741)
your brother, I hate to put it this way, needs to be needy. I hate to compare it like that, but for lack of a better way of conveying it, but you know, because like Paul says, no man anything except to love him. Right? So it's almost like your brother should, you and your brother should always be in deficit.

Kevin (33:30.446)
I get what you're saying.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (33:47.385)
or in need of care, love, responsibility, that kind of thing. But when we're talking about the church, I think the church has a whole different perspective. Even though we preach and teach the word of God, and we tell individuals, need to love your neighbor as yourself, blah, blah, blah, blah, yet we have people that in our congregations that needs are not being met.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (34:20.913)
And so again, we had to ask ourselves, is God's love really there? Is that love of God really there? So yeah, that's my whole piece on that idea.

Kevin (34:29.816)
Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Kevin (34:35.382)
Okay, that's good. That's good. I like that. and I think you're right, you know, like we talked about, you know, a lot of time churches they because they don't put a premium on the things that God actually values. we we we're so focused on the tangible, like I said, the tithe and offering, being in the ministry and those and that's not to say any of those things are are not worthwhile, but those are not the litmus tests that God uses to gauge things that as you mentioned, which is so good, you know, those things

How can you measure any things that God meant that God says we should do? They're not measurable, but there still should be evidence of those things. that's good. That's good. That's good. so when you say, would you say that is there a difference between, let's go here. would you say there's a difference between I'm gonna talk about this on this episode and other episodes coming, so be ready.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (35:07.754)
Mm-hmm. Right, exactly.

Kevin (35:31.599)
is there it is there you think a difference between being in a church that's mostly black versus a church that's multicultural? You think is a di what's the what's the biggest difference besides the obvious? Because obviously the cur the demographic is different. But do you think it's different just because of that? Or are there things that maybe you've seen in your experiences because you, you know, you kind of went to different denominations, different things. So you've seen different congregations. What do you think is some of the major differences?

Ludence Robinson Jr. (35:59.181)
All right. So, okay, so you're major, you're asking a black and white issue or are you asking more of a cultural barriers? what are you getting at? The race issue?

Kevin (36:20.226)
Yes. Yes.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (36:22.217)
and how I felt about it. About it. You know what? You know me already, right? I... Yeah, for me, first and foremost, know, people get mad with me all the time because I say stuff that is very unorthodox. And...

Kevin (36:24.558)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (36:30.496)
I know, but they don't know. That's why I'm asking the question.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (36:48.7)
I believe, this is my belief, this is my personal belief, this has nothing to do with scripture although I believe it's founded on the word of God, but it has nothing to do with

Ludence Robinson Jr. (37:05.375)
that the human race...

Ludence Robinson Jr. (37:11.611)
is all brown and

Kevin (37:16.27)
Yeah, I I know what you're gonna say. But you say tell them. I know I know this but I want them to s I want them to hear you say it.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (37:20.171)
It's all brown in color, right? From off white or boom.

all the way to chocolate or midnight. Right? And our bone brothers, which we call white, ain't white. They're actually brown. But it's a bone brown. It's a light brown. You you go from light brown to, to, to khaki to, you know, all these other

mocha, caramel, cinnamon. mean, you go down, doc, it's a whole spectrum, right? So that in my, even though, I don't want your audience to get me wrong, right? I understand where I'm at. I'm in America, United States of America, where racial tension is as

high as it gets. But them jokers tumor still ain't what.

Ain't nobody as white as that fake you got on your t-shirt or that wall you got over there behind you. Anybody that color, I ain't never seen that person yet. And when we talk about black, I ain't never seen a black person as black as your glasses you got on.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (39:02.345)
Or that TV back there on that wall. Even you, Tuma, you, you, you car mail. Or mocha.

Kevin (39:11.67)
called a lot of things. They'll be called caramel and I'll take it. I'll take it. See it is right here. No, but you're right. You're right. Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (39:13.182)
Pfft.

And so, you know, just thinking about it, I mean, there is really, you know, and I think sometimes we are governed by these stereotypes, you know, and I think America has created the stereotype or have created not just American, but the Europeans have created this status, elite status. So the lighter you are is the more heavenly you are. And the darker you are is more corrupt you are.

Kevin (39:37.923)
The music.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (39:47.792)
or more evil if you will, you know what saying? Because darkness is sometimes, not sometimes, all the time is associated with evil. Whereas white is associated with light and all that kind of stuff, with purity, And if you were to go into the whole argument of what color was Jesus and blah, blah, this and the other, Jesus was Middle Eastern.

Kevin (39:58.969)
Impurity.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (40:13.649)
So he would be brown.

Kevin (40:15.554)
Yeah. Absolutely.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (40:17.863)
Yeah, if they want to bring Jesus up, know, he's not that, you know, that Michelangelo rendition of blue eyes and straight white. No, that ain't Jesus at all. So, you know, I'll just go ahead and take that Jesus down because that's not him. Take him off your wall. Get rid of him because he ain't the one. I'm just saying. He ain't that he is.

Kevin (40:44.344)
Here that's true. That's true.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (40:47.047)
You know, he ain't it. And don't be afraid to take it down because that's Michelangelo's uncle that he painted. Or whomever painted their family member. Yeah, right. But that's, yeah, that's not it. So, you know, but being in churches where, you know, there's white brothers and sisters, I have no issues there.

Kevin (40:57.644)
Well we model use the model for the for the particular picture. Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (41:16.774)
Now, I would say this, I would say this, that we worship different.

Kevin (41:18.232)
Well let me ask you this. Go ahead and I want a question.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (41:28.985)
You know, we do worship different. think the, just for lack of a better term, the black experience is more...

emotionally charged. Whereas, you know, whereas when it comes to our bone brothers, it's more...

Kevin (41:51.448)
Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (42:03.725)
It's more worshipful. And I don't know that has to do with, I don't know whether it has to do with slavery or not. Because it's almost like when we're worshiping, it's almost like we're in bondage and we need to get out.

Kevin (42:20.822)
Mm. I get what you're saying. Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (42:22.501)
Whereas with them, it's more like almost like it's free. You follow what I'm saying? So that becomes a little problematic for me, because I think we should be experiencing, both of us ought to be experiencing that freeness. Maybe we may express it differently, but I think it ought to be free, as opposed to as you feel like you need to be released from something.

Kevin (42:25.55)
Freedom. Just read them new. Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (42:51.735)
you know, because you're in bondage or whatever the case might be. You got a lot going on. You got bills, you know, your life is in shambles. I mean, you know, and not saying that, you know, our Boan brothers don't have the same kind of trials, but it ain't as intense, you know what I'm It's really explicit, but yeah.

Kevin (43:12.68)
Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (43:19.949)
That's what I would say. But my experience in various congregations, and not just with the race issue, but even with the way we communicate truth is different. For most Black churches, there's a lot of screaming and shouting and...

and it's a lot of charismatic type of situation. And it's almost like you feel like you gotta be hyped to get your stuff across, to get your truth across. You gotta be like real hype or you gotta use a lot of different things to try to convey the truth. Whereas our bone brothers just stand up there and talk.

We got some that, some of them might get a little happy, like Rod. Rod will get little happy some day. He's the first boom brother I see get happy like a black man. know what saying? And you got some others too, but for the most part, they're more, you see them more teaching unless they're coming from like a Pentecostal type situation where he's a little bit more fire.

Kevin (44:22.958)
Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (44:40.693)
Yeah, and they're my Holy Ghost fire because they don't to be seen as not having the Holy Ghost. We ain't got no fire. You're Pentecost, you ain't got no fire? Come on now. You got to some Pentecostal fire now. But yeah, that's what I would say in terms of just that.

Kevin (44:50.542)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (44:56.664)
Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (45:08.682)
cultural customs, stuff like that. think, you know, both of them.

do what they can to meet the need of the congregation, think, in some respects. So when it comes to caring for each other, I think we kind of demonstrate that equally. But I do think, though, that our Boone brothers perhaps invest more in the congregation.

And when I say congregation, I'm thinking more like young people.

You know, not saying our Black churches don't do it, but I don't think they do it to that extent. You know, where they, I mean, these jokers go all out for the younger people. have whole, I mean, they'll have a whole building just dedicated to, you know, young people. Whereas we might say, hey, y'all are gonna have to share this room. You know I'm

Kevin (46:10.87)
Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (46:18.015)
It's gonna be a multi-purpose room. But again, it goes back to the whole idea of resources and how the resources are being funneled or used. Yeah, stuff like that. So those are some of the things that I've seen various places. Because I've been, even now, here, like here in Florida, have Christ Fellowship, which is

Kevin (46:20.696)
Well wait, we

Kevin (46:29.143)
Allocated.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (46:47.518)
a very mixed congregation. I mean, when I say mixed, whites, Chinese, it's totally, it's huge. And they have like eight locations. And they invest heavenly in the kids. Kids got their own worship, and that's at every level, every grade level.

You know, they have their own experience at every grade level. know, same thing with, with, I think you've been to Calvary up on Cypress Creek. Same kind of idea, you know, they have that, you know, it's very, very large, large kind of ministry. And, but for us, you know, going to a predominantly white congregation, you know, I don't know how long we gonna stay.

Kevin (47:26.072)
Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (47:46.078)
Particularly if he ain't hoopin' into the clothes, we're be gone, man. We need some hoopin'. We need some, you know... We need some... He died! Yeah!

Kevin (47:52.161)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (48:00.367)
See, y'all now y'all getting a little bit of behind the curtain. This trust me, we when I was there, we me and this guy used to sit on the road and we would have a lot of conversation. Like we got to do another episode just about preaching, period. We gotta talk about that. So we we're gonna you're gonna be on the end, but we're gonna have to do it an episode about preaching. And I think

Ludence Robinson Jr. (48:21.176)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (48:28.726)
It'll be really enlightening for the average person to hear from preachers some of the things that we see that we go through that maybe y'all because y'all just come and y'all hear a sermon. Y'all don't know all the stuff that goes with it. But that's right. So that's that's another episode right there. But let me do this because I don't want to keep you and I don't want to keep the episode too long. But I love it. But I want to say I want to do just enough so they can wanna come back when you come back again. so I guess to kind of sum up.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (48:35.097)
Right, right. The preparation, right, the preparation is involved. That's a whole nother talk, okay.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (48:54.083)
All right, okay.

Kevin (48:58.072)
To it if you could.

What would you say are if you were okay, and I've asked you this before privately, I want to bring this here. If I said, Pastor Ludens Robinson, I'm giving you the keys to make and start your own church. And of course, your job is to make not just disciples, but to grow them and match mature them. What are some things you would do?

That you don't see done in churches. And I'm I hope you don't I'm gonna get there, even in where you currently are. Cause you say you're radical, so I'm gonna put you, see if you can if you're willing to go that far. What are some things you got the keys? You can do whatever you want from top to bottom. What are some things you would do to make mature disciples that you're not you're seeing that you're not seeing in churches?

Ludence Robinson Jr. (50:00.291)
for starters.

I would probably have a plurality in leadership.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (50:12.323)
so that it will be more of a check and balance. So like for instance, Jesus chose 12 men. All the apostles after Jesus left were at Jerusalem.

governing the church together. You see the same thing even when they get to Acts 13. Before Acts 13, Acts 6, have the issue where the Grecian, the Hellenistic Jews is having issue with the Hebraic Jews. And they tell them, choose seven, choose some men from among you that can kind of deal with this business. And they choose seven.

Of course, our interpretation is they choose these seven deacons. Me personally, I don't see it like that anymore. I think it's just a matter of them chosen men who can lead the group. Even though the apostles said we will stay to prayer and to the word of God, it is interesting and they will serve the tables. It's interesting that out of the seven, two of them continued preaching the text.

Stephen and Philip, you know what saying? So I can only imagine what the other four did or the other five did, right? And then of course you had in Antioch, know, the Bible in Acts 13, talks about them having teachers and prophets. And so you had Niger, you have all of these guys that were together and then they separated and the Lord says, hey, separate unto me Barnabas and Saul.

So you still have this Jesus's template has always been two or more.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (52:06.551)
I mean, look at it, dude. I mean, just check it out. Even when Paul calls, when Paul goes to Ephesus, the Bible says he called for the elders of the church, I would go more for like a plurality of leadership so that it wouldn't be a situation where it's personality driven. Yeah. That's what I would do. Just looking at...

Kevin (52:27.234)
Just one just one person, yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (52:34.923)
churches everywhere because that's the common template. You have a leader, so anything with two heads is a monster. That's the stuff we get. Anything with two heads is a monster. Okay, that's fine. That's cool. I could see where you're going with it, but I don't think that's... So then I guess marriage might be a monster. Probably that's why divorces happen all the time because you got two heads. don't know. But anyway, that's a whole nother story.

Kevin (52:43.566)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (52:47.534)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin (53:02.03)
Mm, that's good right there. Yo, they I hope they're ready to hear that. That's a nut that's a nugget. That's a nugget right there. That's a nugget right there. Ooh, I hope y'all heard that. It means only one head in marriage. He said. That's another one. Okay. So plurality and leadership. Okay.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (53:04.533)
I won't leave that alone. I won't leave that alone. anyway. Hey, man, I want another story. But anyway, so that's one, Provality. Provality and leadership. The second thing would be for me, it would be rather unorthodox because I wouldn't necessarily hold

myself nor my people to the 66 canonized version of the scriptures.

Kevin (53:43.051)
Mm. Okay.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (53:44.988)
Yeah, and the reason why would be because

Before the canonized 66, you had 51 canonized, 24 canonized, 73 canonized, 76 canonized, 88 canonized. So now we have the Protestants 66. So which one of them would you say is the authorized version?

we have all of these canonized versions of the text. Which one is more authoritative than the other?

I wouldn't hold people to just be kind of nice. I would encourage them to read them all. But there's Enoch, Tobit, whatever. Yeah, you know what Because Jesus read those books too. The apostles quote from those books. You feel what I'm saying? So I wouldn't, that piece I wouldn't think.

Kevin (54:40.27)
Apoc apocryphal books. Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (54:56.974)
It might probably would be more of a teaching congregation than a preaching one.

Because I think teaching gets into the details, gets into the nook and the cranny of the faith, if you will. So you get to explore the faith more in more of a teaching format. And so you can get people to grow more solidly. And then you wouldn't have to...

have, you know, kind of like all of these, you sometimes we have like, you we have these little small groups because the reason why small groups were created is because people felt like they weren't getting enough. You know what I'm saying? Like we could get more in a smaller group of people, you know, or get more in depth or, you know, I think I would move towards maybe more of like a teaching and then after the teaching maybe have like 15 minutes of

Kevin (55:52.446)
It'll be more in depth.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (56:04.986)
questions or whatever that people may have.

Kevin (56:07.202)
So basically, so the way you're saying it, basically, like you say, unorthodox, it wouldn't be the typical service with the praise and worship and then the pastor come preach and then that's it. It would be more teaching and then afterwards QA, the person can ask the questions. That would be that would be that would be good.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (56:13.553)
Nah, it wouldn't be church as we know it. Yeah. Yeah, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. And I'm telling you where I got that from too. I got it from a Jehovah Witnesses boy.

You go to a Joe Witness church, That's what they do. They teach the people. They ask questions in a congregation, all that kind of stuff. So having a situation where people can ask questions, think, a very, very, fosters accountability and kind of like togetherness, you know what I mean? Like this openness, if you will. So that would do that.

I probably would have...

If I were to, let's say, know, kind of collect funds or monies or what have you, I probably would put the offertories in the hallway.

in boxes for people to deposit as opposed to picking it up or talking about it in the congregation itself. I probably would say, I'll give them the opportunity to give, as Jesus would say, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. You know what saying? And so give them opportunity to give at their own accord.

Kevin (57:41.198)
Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (57:50.616)
I think I would...

Ludence Robinson Jr. (57:56.142)
Depending on how far I live from the church, I probably would ride a bike.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (58:07.352)
Yeah, because I think sometimes what happens is people tend to associate the things that you have with the Lord's blessing.

Kevin (58:19.598)
Hmm. That's good.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (58:21.089)
you know so yeah so you know if I'm driving if I'm driving as it were a what's what's probably giving give me the most expensive car there they don't even follow cars like that but

Kevin (58:34.336)
I don't either. I don't know, a Bugatti. A Bugatti it probably is.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (58:37.325)
Okay, yeah, let's say I got the money, go buy me a Bugatti. I'm not driving it to the church.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (58:49.901)
That wouldn't look good.

You know what I'm And the reason being is because the perception.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (59:02.305)
Just the perception alone sends off a bad, you know, gives you a bad taste in the mouth.

Kevin (59:08.814)
I can see that, especially in this climate where everybody thinks all preachers are, you know, money hungry and all this stuff. I can see what that would definitely give could be a bad language.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (59:12.333)
Yeah, correct, correct, yeah. And then when we start to think that, know, depending on what we have is, know, that's the point, but the Lord is blessing this brother really good. So now, again, it brings us back to the whole point of what people see, right? If I see you, on a bike, and you say you're a preacher, and I see another guy driving a Bugatti, man, he ain't hearing from God, you ain't. Ain't no way you could be hearing from God, Tuma, and you're on a bike.

You know I'm saying? It's kind of like, you know what, it reminds me of like, is just a thing in passing. if you remember the story of Jeremiah and Hananiah the prophet, right? God told Jeremiah, the people gonna stay in slavery for 70 years, right? And Hananiah the prophet said, hey, it's only two years y'all gonna stay in slavery.

Kevin (01:00:04.568)
How many years? Mm-hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:00:13.099)
Now between me and you two, if Jeremiah and Hania came to me and gave me those two prophecies, which prophet you think I'm going with?

Kevin (01:00:22.19)
yeah. You go for the one that le Yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:00:24.203)
I'm going with the two year prophet. I ain't got to spend, 70 year, listen, the 70 year old, the 70 prophet who heard God say 70, he ain't heard nothing from the Lord, that's a devil. Two year prophet, yeah, he heard from God.

Kevin (01:00:37.464)
Yeah. That's true. You're right. Hmm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:00:42.795)
You know what saying? So I'm gonna look just based on what you're saying, what you're doing. That's the profit I'm going. So if I come ride me a bike to church, ain't nobody gonna wanna hear me, man. This guy coming to church on a bike, like what is that? In his 10 age? But my living, my life would probably be as it is right now, very much.

Kevin (01:01:12.654)
Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:01:13.269)
You know, even if even if God had blessed me to that extent.

You know, I wouldn't live lavishly at all.

Kevin (01:01:24.558)
Hm, that's good. That's good. Okay.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:01:26.994)
Yeah, so, but yeah.

Kevin (01:01:29.814)
Right. All right. Well, we will stop it there. I want to keep going, but yeah, I I wanted to give them just enough. So then when they see this episode, they could be like, Kev, when you gonna have Pastor Rob on again? I wanna give him just enough. Cause trust me, we we just scratched the surface. I really wish you guys were a fly on the wall with a lot of conversations him and I had and just the things you talked about in this particular episode. Trust me, I'm already thinking, man, that's a show there, that's a show right there, that's a show right there. So

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:01:36.093)
You

Kevin (01:01:58.764)
We would definitely have you on again and we're going to get more deep. But I just want to do something just initially, just to talk about it, a baseline thing and to get people who who are subscribers to know who you are. So then the next time they'll be like, yeah, I remember him when he first the last on the first episode. yeah, I want to know what he thinks about this. And even as you watch this, if you have any questions about anything that he even mentioned or comments, always as usual, leave your comments, like, share, and subscribe. And again, I it was my pleasure.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:02:09.938)
Right.

Kevin (01:02:28.268)
And I hope this episode blessed you. Thank you for my brother coming on. And again, he will be on again. Cause trust me, I got more questions. But we just got it, I want to keep it.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:02:30.633)
Thank you, Kuma. I appreciate that, man. I do. I really do. Hey, man, let me just say this. You're doing a wonderful job with Beyond the Demented Diction, man. I tune in every time you're talking or having your little discussions, whether it's in your car or in your little house or wherever you...

Kevin (01:02:39.746)
Yeah. Yes.

Kevin (01:02:55.406)
Mm.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:02:55.753)
I do tune in and listen to you. say, boy, that's humor or something else, boy. He going in. He going in. But I love it though. I love it. I love it.

Kevin (01:03:02.478)
Well, glory to appreciate you, brother. Glory to God. Hey, you were a catalyst in making it happen. I give God glory, but He put you in my path to you helped me to get to this point. So glory to God and all kudos to you as well, my brother. I appreciate it. but we're gonna wrap up this episode. thank you guys for watching and listening. I pray this blessed you, and as always, make sure your light shines brightest for the Lord Jesus Christ beyond the benediction. Until next time, be blessed.

Ludence Robinson Jr. (01:03:32.304)
Peace.